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Close combat against a vehicle?

 
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jhudson67
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:01 pm    Post subject: Close combat against a vehicle? Reply with quote

I am new to the SW world and am working vehicle into my existing skirmish game. I looked through the Showdown rules and the SW rules and do not see any rules allowing close combat against a vehicle.

Since vehicles do not have Parry, do you go against the vehicle's operator? Or did I miss something?

Using a Walker (like the ATST from Star Wars) as an example how would do the following scenarios play out in terms of what stat to role against.

- Walker against Walker, using grapplers or claws.
- A band of Humans against the walker, say gaining up with clubs.
- An animal against the walker using biting and claws.

Page numbers and pointing to the rules will help me, plus any examples.

Thanks,
Jeff
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, Welcome to the forum.

Second, find better examples. Razz ATST does not have manipulators of any kind, so no fighting attacks. ATST does have Heavy Armor, so clubs and animals are completely useless against it (Heavy Armor allows the vehicle to ignore attacks that are not Heavy Weapons).
For something like a bunch of vampires with baseball bats trying to smash a car full of fleeing victims, it's often useful to check official answers. http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36766&highlight=parry+vehicle

Third:
Vehicles are a special category of Object. Due to the many complex assemblies and delicate parts, they don't normally follow the Breaking Things rules (as explicitly stated in the Savage Worlds Vehicles section). However, they are still objects.
If a vehicle is not moving then it has a Parry of 2, just like every other inanimate object. Depending upon the circumstances, you could use the Breaking Things rules (random guy beating on the door panels and hood with a club), or you could use the normal damage rules.
If it is moving then a GM might decide that it has a parry greater than 2, as indicated in the linked post.

Good luck and have fun!
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jhudson67
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I did not state my example exactly like you wanted, I did use the word Walker (not ATST) to indicate I was talking about the idea of a walker (that may have manipulators) and not the ATST. If I was using an ATST, I would have said using an ATST instead as you see in my post I used the term Walker. Next time I will include the stats for my vehicle instead of giving a generic example.

And what makes you think I did NOT search the forums for the answer? I looked through both rule books (as stated) and I did search through the forums.

Maybe you should ask for more clarification when answering questions from new players?

At first I saw nothing in the vehicle section on breaking things (pg 58 savage worlds deluxe pdf), that is because all of the items you mentioned below are under the Breaking Things section on pg 72.

Thanks for mentioning that, because that whole section is not in the Savage Showdown pdf at all. Seems like something that should be added to that ruleset. It would avoid new playing from asking stupid questions and wasting the time of more experienced players like yourself.

Since I am playing showdown, I am going to have to make an extra special effort to really look through the savage world book to find the 'missing rules'.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again I have given offense unintentionally. For which I apologize.


I'll try to address your issues again. Hopefully this will help.

Walker-vehicles like a space marine dreadnaught, are basically characters with vehicle armor. They'd have normal stats, but their armor would be three values (30/20/10 for a random example).
Other walkers are basically tanks. Unfortunately, all the examples I can think of have Heavy Armor, making fighting attacks generally wasteful (I can't think of any close combat Heavy Weapons).

For the sake of argument, I'll assume there are either walkers without heavy armor or melee weapons that are heavy weapons. Further, we'll assume that these walkers are as clumsy as the ATST, preventing them from fighting like a living creature.
In this case the Parry should probably be 2. If everyone agrees that Parry should be higher, then using the operator's Driving skill as the "fighting" should suffice.
If the walkers are agile enough to actually fight (like the Hatchetman Mech from MechWarrior / BattleTech) then they'll have a Fighting skill and their Parry should be based upon that.

Does that help? Do you have further questions or issues? Is there anything else you wanted to cover?
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KhyberJoe
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
Unfortunately, all the examples I can think of have Heavy Armor, making fighting attacks generally wasteful (I can't think of any close combat Heavy Weapons).

For the sake of argument, I'll assume there are either walkers without heavy armor or melee weapons that are heavy weapons. Further, we'll assume that these walkers are as clumsy as the ATST, preventing them from fighting like a living creature.


Actually, what we are trying to simulate here are the Marauders from "Starship Troopers", more specifically "The Roughneck Chronicles". If you have seen the show, some of the bugs have sharp enough claws to cut through metal, so we do need some mechanic of animal attack against heavy armor.

Granted, the Marauders are rather slow, but they do bat the bug around at times, and do grapple with them as the bugs try to tear away parts of the machine. So, we need the ability to have the suits melee and the bugs to affect the machines.

I want to get this all together for the next SSN at Origins. I already have the bugs, Marauders and troopers minis. I just need to polish the stats and work out this mechanic Wink

Joe
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TheLoremaster
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KhyberJoe wrote:
Actually, what we are trying to simulate here are the Marauders from "Starship Troopers", more specifically "The Roughneck Chronicles". If you have seen the show, some of the bugs have sharp enough claws to cut through metal, so we do need some mechanic of animal attack against heavy armor.

Granted, the Marauders are rather slow, but they do bat the bug around at times, and do grapple with them as the bugs try to tear away parts of the machine. So, we need the ability to have the suits melee and the bugs to affect the machines.

The SPC and NE offer a mod for Attack Powers that might be useful: Focus. For a Fighting roll at -4, the attacker ignores an inanimate object's Armor, attacking against the base Toughness. Could easily be expanded to a creature ability, and to apply towards Vehicles too.

Pair that with Gang-Up, and a group of bugs offsets the penalty, making a base Fighting attack. It's a place to start, at the very least...
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Focus is cool. And by default it works against both objects and vehicles (to encourage supers to fight supers, since tanks get destroyed).

I actually have seen the Roughneck Chronicles and know what you're speaking about.
One option, and what I would use if I felt that they needed a Parry score, is 2 + 1/2 (Control Skill); they still use Fighting to attack in close combat, and might even count as Large creatures (-2 to attack smaller creatures, +2 to be hit by smaller creatures). But their defenses don't seem related to how good the pilot is at fighting; piloting skill matters a lot more.
Of course, all that twisting about could simply be descriptive text for attacks that don't cause damage (but could have) and successful Soak rolls (allowed by the Ace edge) despite the suit's innate parry of 2.
Lots of possibilities.
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jhudson67
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
Once again I have given offense unintentionally. For which I apologize.


I'll try to address your issues again. Hopefully this will help.

Walker-vehicles like a space marine dreadnaught, are basically characters with vehicle armor. They'd have normal stats, but their armor would be three values (30/20/10 for a random example).
Other walkers are basically tanks. Unfortunately, all the examples I can think of have Heavy Armor, making fighting attacks generally wasteful (I can't think of any close combat Heavy Weapons).

For the sake of argument, I'll assume there are either walkers without heavy armor or melee weapons that are heavy weapons. Further, we'll assume that these walkers are as clumsy as the ATST, preventing them from fighting like a living creature.
In this case the Parry should probably be 2. If everyone agrees that Parry should be higher, then using the operator's Driving skill as the "fighting" should suffice.
If the walkers are agile enough to actually fight (like the Hatchetman Mech from MechWarrior / BattleTech) then they'll have a Fighting skill and their Parry should be based upon that.

Does that help? Do you have further questions or issues? Is there anything else you wanted to cover?


Thanks for the expanded response. This all started when I saw the picture of the walker in the showdown rulebook and realized there was no stats for that particular walker (please correct me if I am wrong). Also, I thought it would be cool to have a group of walkers on a lost island expedition that is attacked by dinosaurs. So I am trying to figure out the stats for the walker and stat up some dinosaurs.

Off the top of my head, I am wondering if I can give a claw an AP value?
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Clint
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jhudson67 wrote:
This all started when I saw the picture of the walker in the showdown rulebook and realized there was no stats for that particular walker (please correct me if I am wrong).


Nope, no stats; the walkers in those pictures are from Reality Blurs' Iron Dynasty game described in the advertisement at the end of the Showdown rules.
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KhyberJoe
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:08 am    Post subject: Vehicle Melee Reply with quote

<Deleted - See text below>

Last edited by KhyberJoe on Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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KhyberJoe
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yet another update.

Joe


Showdown! –Vehicle Combat

The current Showdown rules lack a few details about vehicle combat and do not mention close combat against a vehicle or between vehicles, so the following are proposals for such.

Some possible vehicle melee situations:
• Walker using manipulator arms against another walker, vehicle, animal, or human
• A group of humans with hand weapons against an armored vehicle
• An animal or group of animals with natural weapons against a vehicle


General

Vehicles need to be driven or piloted by figures using some control skill. Thus, “Driveing”, “Piloting” and “Boating” need to be added to the Showdown Edge list.

Wheeled or tracked vehicles have to be driven with the “Driving” skill. Walkers may be driven or piloted; use either “Driving” or “Piloting” for all control related skill checks. Boats and possibly submarines are guided with the “Boating” skill.

Flip Damage – add “exterior weapons are ruined” to the Flip result on the “Out of Control” chart.


Movement

Unless the front of the vehicle is obvious, a mark should be applied on the front of the vehicle marker, miniature or its base to denote facing and forward direction of travel. If there is any question as to what the front of the vehicle is, determine what it is and mark it before the game begins.

A Travel Direction marker can be placed directly behind the vehicle so that its general direction of travel may be tracked.

Normally, a vehicle must be at rest or come to a complete stop before going into Reverse. Likewise, if a vehicle is reversing, it must come to a complete stop before changing direction and moving forward. Otherwise, a Piloting skill roll must be made at -2 (or more) to change from one direction to the other.

As with a vehicle’s Acceleration rate, a vehicle may decelerate as fast as its Deceleration rate allows, unless otherwise noted.


Attacking a Vehicle

Ranged Combat

The firing arc of a vehicle’s weapon is determined by its mounting and location. For example, if a weapon has a fixed mount on the front of the vehicle, it can only fire in a cone to the front. Use the flame template to determine the firing arc. If a weapon has a swivel mount; use two or more flame templates side by side to determine its firing arc.

A walker that is able to twist its torso may have a wider firing arc because of that ability; use two or three flame templates side by side to determine its firing arc. Only one torso twist is allowed in a fire action.

Arm or hand mounted weapons also have a wider firing arc than if mounted on the vehicle body; use three or more flame templates side by side to determine its firing arc.

Melee Combat

Vehicles are a special category of Object, though because of all of the multiple assemblies and delicate parts involved, vehicles do not follow the Breaking Things rules (as explicitly stated in the Savage Worlds Vehicles section).

If a vehicle is not moving, it has a Parry of 2. If the vehicle is moving, a GM can decide that it has a Parry greater than 2 depending on its speed, terrain and other factors. Optionally, another way to calculate a vehicle’s Parry score is 2 + 1/2 (Driver’s Control Skill). So, if the operator has Driving d8, its Parry is 6.

The vehicle’s size may give a +2 to be hit by smaller creatures.

Only Heavy Weapons may affect vehicles with Heavy Armor. Attacks made with clubs and by animals may hit, but will not cause damage.

Special melee weapons (light saber, monofilament blade, etc.) can be considered Heavy Weapons and can be used against Heavy Armor. An extremely large or powerful animal could be considered to be able to damage Heavy Armor.

NOTE: Super Powers Companion and Necessary Evil include an Attack modifier: Focus. For a Fighting roll at -4, the attacker ignores an inanimate object's armor, attacking against the base Toughness. Focus can be applied to both objects and vehicles. Focus can also be a creature ability that can be applied against vehicles. Pairing Focus with Ganging Up allows a group of animals is to make base Fighting attacks against a vehicle.


Damaging a Vehicle

Use normal damage or the Breaking Things rules for situations like a vandal beating on the hood of a car with a club or pipe.

A walker without heavy armor could be attacked with normal weapons, assuming that the damage done is to delicate parts and systems rather than the frame of the vehicle.

VARIATION: Some types of walkers (exosuit, Elemental, etc.) are basically characters wearing vehicle armor. Consider them to have normal character stats, but their armor would consist of three values (30/20/10 for example).


Fighting from a Vehicle

A vehicle has to have some kind of manipulator arm or built-in melee weapon to engage in melee.

Some walkers are clumsy or are not stabilized; this prevents them from making effective melee attacks. If a walker is agile enough or has a stabilizer, its Fighting skill is based on the operator's Control skill (Drive, Pilot or Boating).

If a vehicle’s size is Large, it is penalized -2 to attack smaller creatures.


Manipulator Arms

If not wielding a weapon, a manipulator arm may be used as an armored club to make a melee attack. It can also be used to rip and tear at vitals or structural members.

• A light manipulator arm does 1d4 damage.
• A standard manipulator arm does 2d4 damage.
• A heavy manipulator arm does 3d4 damage.


Multiple Arms

If a vehicle has more than one manipulator arm, it may make more than one melee attack in a round. The second attack is made at -2, the third and subsequent attacks are made at -4.


Jousting

Two vehicles with manipulator arms that are passing within Reach of each other may attempt to strike with a Glancing Blow. Each may make a melee attack with one or more manipulator arms. Whether the attack is successful or not, the arm may be ripped off.

- End of File


Last edited by KhyberJoe on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
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raikenclw
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KhyberJoe wrote:
Melee Combat

Special melee weapons (light saber, monofilament blade, etc.) can be considered Heavy Weapons and can be used against Heavy Armor.


Ever read the "Empire of Man" (ne Prince Roger series) by Weber/Ringo? Those books have a melee weapon that lets someone *potentially* take out a suit of Marine power armor. It's essentially a hand-held shaped-charge warhead, about the size and shape of a heavy flashlight.

Of course - as the books take pains to point out - if anyone ever has occasion to *use* the weapon in earnest, that is usually their last action, in this life . . . Razz
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Marshalonwheels
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

when i ran Savage SST as an rpg i did this set of rules for marauders/mecha
-they had heavy armor
- heavy armor did not function if "turtled" or held in place
- heavy armor could be bypassed by -2/-4 (melee/ranged) attacks
- bugs could use Gang up bonus to grapple
- drive replaced fighting for mecha types
- parry for mecha= drive/2 +2
- a raise was need to turtle
- a a mecha that was grappled on 2+ was held
- if heavy armor was bypassed it still had the same armor just wasn't heavy for that attack

hope that helps
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KhyberJoe
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yet another update. Comments are welcome.

Joe


Showdown! –Vehicle Combat - Revision 3

The current Showdown rules lack a few details about vehicle combat and do not mention close combat against a vehicle or between vehicles, so the following are proposals for such.

Some possible vehicle melee situations:
• A walker using manipulator arms against another walker, vehicle, an animal, or a human
• A group of humans with hand weapons attacking a vehicle
• An animal or group of animals with natural weapons attacking a vehicle


General

For Showdown, a vehicle is defined as being a self-propelled mode of transportation with wheels, tracks, legs, wings, or a lifting body. This includes all cars, trucks, tractors, motorcycles, tanks, APCs, boats, ships, submarines, propeller driven air planes, helicopters, gliders, jets, walkers, and space vehicles, among others.

Vehicles need to be driven or piloted by figures using some type of control skill. Thus, “Driving”, “Piloting” and “Boating” need to be added to the Showdown Edge list.

Wheeled or tracked vehicles are driven with the “Driving” skill. Walkers and hovercraft are also driven using “Driving” for all control related skill checks. Boats and submarines are guided with the “Boating” skill. Aircraft and spacecraft are controlled with “Piloting”.

Flip Damage – add “Any exterior-mounted weapons or accessories are ruined.” to the Flip result on the “Out of Control” chart on page 27.


Movement

Unless the front of the vehicle marker or miniature is obvious, a distinctive mark should be applied to the front of the vehicle marker, miniature or its base to denote facing and forward direction of travel. If there is any question as to what the front of the vehicle is or what direction “forward” is, determine what it is and mark it before the game begins.

A Travel Direction marker can be placed directly behind the vehicle so that its general direction of travel may be tracked.

Normally, a ground or water vehicle must be at rest or come to a complete stop before going into Reverse. Likewise, if a vehicle is reversing, it must come to a complete stop before changing direction and moving forward. Otherwise, a control skill roll must be made at -2 (or more) to change from one direction to the other. Only VTOL and helicopters can reverse direction in the air; jets, gliders and airplanes reverse direction via a tight turn maneuver.

As with a vehicle’s Acceleration rate, a vehicle may decelerate as fast as its Deceleration rate allows, unless otherwise noted.

At the referee’s discretion, vehicles can begin a battle traveling at a randomly determined speed within its normal ability; i.e., roll a d12 for a walker whose top speed is 12”.


Attacking a Vehicle

Ranged Combat

The firing arc of a vehicle’s weapon is determined by its mounting and location. For example, if a weapon has a fixed mount on the front of the vehicle; it can only fire in a cone-shaped area to the front. Use a flame template to determine the firing arc. If a weapon has a swivel mount; use two or more flame templates side by side to determine its firing arc.

A walker that is able to twist its torso may have a wider firing arc because of that ability; use two or three flame templates side by side to determine its firing arc. Only one torso twist is allowed in a fire action.

Arm or hand mounted weapons also have a wider firing arc than if mounted on the vehicle body; use three or more flame templates side by side to determine its firing arc.

A vehicle operator may attempt to Dodge a ranged attack by making a control check at -2. The vehicle operator must be able to see the attack coming. Only one Dodge attempt may be made per combat round.


Melee Combat

Vehicles are a special category of Object, though because of all of the assemblies and delicate parts involved, vehicles do not follow the Breaking Things rules (as explicitly stated in the Savage Worlds Vehicles section).

If a vehicle is not moving, it has a Parry of 2. If the vehicle is moving, a GM can decide whether it has a Parry greater than 2, depending on its speed, terrain and other factors. Optionally, another way to calculate a vehicle’s Parry score is 2 + 1/2 (Driver’s Control Skill). So, if the operator has Driving d8, the vehicle’s Parry is 6.

To stay in melee with a vehicle, a creature must succeed with a Grapple attempt or be left behind as the vehicle moves on. If the creature is smaller than the vehicle, it does not stop the vehicle. If the creature and the vehicle are the same size they make a contest of Strength to see if the creature stops the vehicle or the vehicle continues on. If the creature is larger than the vehicle, the vehicle is stopped by the creature and both may take collision damage.

A creature maybe dislodged from a grapple with a vehicle with sudden maneuvers (control check made at -2) and the creature fails a Strength check at -2 for each maneuver (-2 for the first, -4 for the second maneuver, and so on).

The vehicle’s size may give a +2 to be hit by smaller creatures.

Only Heavy Weapons may affect vehicles with Heavy Armor. Attacks made with clubs and by animals may hit, but will not cause appreciable damage.

Special melee weapons (sci-fi items such as a light saber, monofilament blade, etc.) can be considered Heavy Weapons and can be used against Heavy Armor. An extremely large or powerful animal or one with a special weapon could also be considered to be able to damage Heavy Armor.

Soak Roll: A vehicle does not get a soak roll to eliminate a hit.

NOTE: Super Powers Companion and Necessary Evil include an Attack modifier: Focus. For a Fighting roll at -4, the attacker ignores an inanimate object's armor, attacking against the base Toughness. Focus can be applied to both objects and vehicles. Focus can also be a creature’s ability that can be applied against vehicles. Pairing Focus with Ganging Up allows a group of animals is to make base Fighting attacks against a vehicle.


Damaging a Vehicle

Use normal damage or the Breaking Things rules for situations such as a vandal beating on the hood of a car with a club or pipe where he is targeting a specific part of the vehicle. Otherwise, vehicles are too complicated to use “hit and remove”.

A walker without heavy armor could be attacked with normal weapons, assuming that the damage done is to delicate parts and systems rather than the frame of the vehicle.

VARIATION: Some types of walkers (exosuit, Elemental, etc.) are basically characters wearing vehicle armor. Consider them to have normal character stats, but their armor would consist of three values (30/20/10 for example).


Fighting from a Vehicle

A vehicle has to have some kind of manipulator arm or built-in melee weapon to engage in melee.

Some walkers are clumsy or are not stabilized; this prevents them from making effective melee attacks. If a walker is agile enough or has a stabilizer, its Fighting skill is based on the operator's Control skill (Drive, Pilot or Boating).

If a vehicle’s size is Large, it is penalized with a -2 to attack smaller creatures. If it is Huge, it is penalized with a -4 to attack smaller creatures.


Manipulator Arms

If not wielding a weapon, a manipulator arm may be used as an armored club to make a melee attack. It can also be used to rip and tear at vitals or structural members.

• A light manipulator arm does 1d4 damage.
• A standard manipulator arm does 2d4 damage.
• A heavy manipulator arm does 3d4 damage.


Multiple Arms

If a vehicle has more than one manipulator arm, it may make more than one melee attack in a round. The second attack is made at -2, the third and subsequent attacks are made at -4.


Jousting

Two vehicles with manipulator arms that are passing within Reach of each other may attempt to strike with a Glancing Blow. Each may make a melee attack with one or more manipulator arms. Whether the attack is successful or not, the arm may be ripped off.

- End of File


NOTES

Place a d4 next to or behind a vehicle to keep track of hits against it.

For slow moving vehicles, keep a d12 (a d20, or whatever die is appropriate) next to the model to keep track of its current speed.

Breaking Things

Occasionally a character may want to break something, such as a weapon, a lock, or a door. Use the Toughness values below for these kinds of objects. Use these rules for solid objects. Larger objects with many components (such as vehicles) take multiple hits as per the vehicle rules.

Most anything can be broken given enough time and effort, so use this system only when attempting to break things in a hurry (such as during combat rounds).

The Parry of an inanimate object is 2. The catch is that damage rolls against them don’t count bonuses from raises on the attack roll, nor Aces. Unlike a person or even a vehicle, an attack cannot hit a “vital” area on a lock or a door and thus do more damage. If an attack can’t do enough damage to destroy an object, it can’t destroy it (at least not quickly). This keeps characters from shattering swords with a feather and a lucky Strength roll.

If the damage roll equals or exceeds the object’s Toughness, it’s broken, bent, shattered, or otherwise ruined. The GM decides the exact effects—such as whether a good strike opens a hole in a door or knocks it off its hinges.

See Obstacles to attack through objects.
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