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Bad guys going down very quickly and super scale issues

 
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Kertain
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Joined: 07 Aug 2011
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:29 pm    Post subject: Bad guys going down very quickly and super scale issues Reply with quote

Greetings,
So I asked a similar question awhile back(http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34357&highlight=) and tried to take many of the recommendations to heart.

However I have run several more games since then and have a reoccurring problem with my bosses getting totally one shotted..ect. I realize I probable need to minion it up a bit more, but still trying to figure out that balance between "give a challenge, but not TOO hard everyone dies all the time". So that is one of my problems, but it leads into my next.

This problem has become increasingly bad in my Necessary Evil campaign.
One of my players is super "Fightey" (d12+2) and very hard to hit with a total Parry at 11 and Deflection +3 to getting shot (aka moving cover). He is also very fast so he can get into close combat and out of range very easily.
Every group of minions he comes across he uses Sweep and instant kills pretty much the entire posse and with a Parry of 11 its nearly impossible to hit him back.

Another player has Toughness 11 and a damage field which pretty much instant kills anything that attempts to get close.

I have attempted to use Tricks, Taunts..ect but when you are dealing with a Parry or Toughness of 11 its is really really hard to do anything. I tried scaling up a bad guy with high parry in a melee duel but it ended up being a "you miss" "he misses" (even with tricks) until some got lucky and exploded.

Not sure what I am doing wrong, but this has to be a common issues with Supers in Savage Worlds since they scale out so much higher then norms.

I can start cheating and just using TONS of bad guys but at some point that becomes top heavy and not as much fun.
Note: these guys are just starting out..I can't imagine this getting better when they get more powers next rank..


Thoughts?
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VonDan
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Joined: 08 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make a minion called sticky and when the strong one hits him his fist is stuck to the minion and he has a dead body hanging from his hand reducing his speed and parry

the one with killer protection field. Let him kill the minion holding the case of nitro that is dropped at his feet
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Reef
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Joined: 16 Feb 2009
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The V'sori are comic book supervillains. They virtually all have super mental powers. Throw a few of those in there, and shred their brains.

Also, they are not dumb. If the players are racking up victories, the V'sori will start hand-tailoring solutions. Tech designed to counter the players. The more prominent the players become, the more likely this is. Think about it: Magneto makes enough of an ass out of himself and suddenly all the Sentinals are being built out of plastic polymers. Try to problem solve from their stand-point.

Case in point, from my NE campaign. One of the players used Mind Control to great effect, constantly using Drones against their own forces. Halfway through the Drones started getting simple upgrades: anytime something interrupted V'sori control a red light would start flashing on it's armor. Suddenly troops could easily tell which drones were compromised, and it prevented a few subterfuge style plans. Didn't nullify the player, but showed the enemy adapting.

Also, bring in the augmented Fins early if you have to.

The V'sori and the Fins chewed through an entire planet of heroes. They are supposed to be tough. Don't be afraid to let them be.
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ValhallaGH
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Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grenades. Lots and lots of fusion grenades. 3d8 in a medium burst template averages 15 damage as an AP 2 heavy weapon. That's a lot of death and destruction, using a TN 4 throwing roll. Twisted Evil

Oh, and as V'Sori weapons, they have an ID tag that prevents them from being used by non-V'Sori. Real life has such ID systems, and the V'sori are paranoid enough to put that on their one-use grenades. Wink
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Kertain
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Posts: 75

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All good points, thank you.

I guess I am worried about completely nullifying the groups special abilities. After all, they took the time to design some trick their characters could do, if I find a perfect way to circumvent them it would be less fun.

I need to be careful because I have every tool set imaginable to counter them, while they are now rigidly defined with what their powers can do.

Also another point: I think part of the reasons the V'sori took all the supers out in "one blow" was for this very reason. Supers abilities are varied in power and aspect and thus hard to counter, it makes sense why they woud not want a long drawn out war with them. One could argue that is why the resistance is so effective ...its hard to cope for every unique powerset supers can have.

It would be easy to throw sticky grenades at the high Parry guy..but then he is pretty much powerless. Seems like a fine line to me.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kertain wrote:
One could argue that is why the resistance is so effective ...its hard to cope for every unique powerset supers can have.

The real problem is Star City. They can simply nuke any other location that becomes too much of a problem, but they are not allowed to do major damage to Star City (or they accidentally kill their god-king).
This allows the resistance to be based out of there with impunity. The V'sori are limited to relatively conventional techniques, and the resistance can actually do stuff without being vaporized.

The V and the Fins are smart enough, and experienced enough, to counter any given power set pretty quickly. They don't often need to (troops with massive firepower can kill most supers pretty easily) but they can adapt very effectively when a foe proves troublesome. If you need more advice, try using the Search function to see everything Clint has had to say about the V'sori. As both the Core Rules Brand Manager and the author of Necessary Evil, he's given some excellent advice on keeping it challenging.
Advice that includes, "check with your players to see if they are feeling challenged." I know that as a player, I've watched the party steam-roll bad guys and said prayers of thanks; I knew how lucky we'd gotten and how close we were to being the ones that got steam-rolled.
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robert4818
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Joined: 25 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Bad guys going down very quickly and super scale issues Reply with quote

Kertain wrote:
Greetings,
So I asked a similar question awhile back(http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34357&highlight=) and tried to take many of the recommendations to heart.

However I have run several more games since then and have a reoccurring problem with my bosses getting totally one shotted..ect. I realize I probable need to minion it up a bit more, but still trying to figure out that balance between "give a challenge, but not TOO hard everyone dies all the time". So that is one of my problems, but it leads into my next.

This problem has become increasingly bad in my Necessary Evil campaign.
One of my players is super "Fightey" (d12+2) and very hard to hit with a total Parry at 11 and Deflection +3 to getting shot (aka moving cover). He is also very fast so he can get into close combat and out of range very easily.
Every group of minions he comes across he uses Sweep and instant kills pretty much the entire posse and with a Parry of 11 its nearly impossible to hit him back.

Another player has Toughness 11 and a damage field which pretty much instant kills anything that attempts to get close.

I have attempted to use Tricks, Taunts..ect but when you are dealing with a Parry or Toughness of 11 its is really really hard to do anything. I tried scaling up a bad guy with high parry in a melee duel but it ended up being a "you miss" "he misses" (even with tricks) until some got lucky and exploded.

Not sure what I am doing wrong, but this has to be a common issues with Supers in Savage Worlds since they scale out so much higher then norms.

I can start cheating and just using TONS of bad guys but at some point that becomes top heavy and not as much fun.
Note: these guys are just starting out..I can't imagine this getting better when they get more powers next rank..

Thoughts?


The only advice I have is to try and move away from the concept of "Boss Battle" towards the concept of "Climax".

Sure, you can still have "the boss" during the climax, but remove the concept of "gotta kill him" as the goal for the climax. Think of some classic movies: Superman 1, The Mummy, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, Star Wars Ep IV, Batman Begins, Dark Knight, etc.

Many of these movies didn't focus on killing the bad guy to win the climactic scene. While killing the bad guy happened, there was another thing that was really important in each one of them first.

Start looking at your "boss battles" more like that, then you won't be as worried when the guys kill your bosses really quick.
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Sushi
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Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kertain wrote:
All good points, thank you.

I guess I am worried about completely nullifying the groups special abilities. After all, they took the time to design some trick their characters could do, if I find a perfect way to circumvent them it would be less fun.


On the other hand, it's exactly what your party's foes should be doing. If they have any idea of what the party's abilities are, they should be doing their best to come up with ways to nullify them. I think most players appreciate that back-and-forth dynamic.
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TommyBrownell
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Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 800
Location: Oklahoma

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reef wrote:
The V'sori are comic book supervillains. They virtually all have super mental powers. Throw a few of those in there, and shred their brains.

Also, they are not dumb. If the players are racking up victories, the V'sori will start hand-tailoring solutions. Tech designed to counter the players. The more prominent the players become, the more likely this is. Think about it: Magneto makes enough of an ass out of himself and suddenly all the Sentinals are being built out of plastic polymers. Try to problem solve from their stand-point.

Case in point, from my NE campaign. One of the players used Mind Control to great effect, constantly using Drones against their own forces. Halfway through the Drones started getting simple upgrades: anytime something interrupted V'sori control a red light would start flashing on it's armor. Suddenly troops could easily tell which drones were compromised, and it prevented a few subterfuge style plans. Didn't nullify the player, but showed the enemy adapting.

Also, bring in the augmented Fins early if you have to.

The V'sori and the Fins chewed through an entire planet of heroes. They are supposed to be tough. Don't be afraid to let them be.


Good advice here. The V'Sori have done a lot of damage to my group's physical types, and the less physical types are in constant danger from the Fins and the like.

I've also liberally sprinkled in rogue supers who have joined the bad guys and a Black Ops team designed to take down supers...and they totally kicked my group's butt in their first battle, forcing them to retreat and killing a team member.

Let them get comfortable with the same tactics and then have the V'Sori adapt at the worst possible time.
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wheatiess
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Joined: 25 Aug 2012
Posts: 61
Location: australia vic

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for the fast guy have a character with first strike and stun(and fighting to match fast guys high parry) could be a predictive combat analyiser. when he charges him he wont expect to be slaped away and dazed for 1d6 turns. the only way the fast guy could beat him is to suprise him or use ranged attacks

or shotgun minion on hold with a masive agility.....dodge this fast guy(but that could kill him so maybe not)

damage field only does 2d6 damage(3 maybe if electric) just up the minion armour or toughness. or special squad that has negate 4 electric damage grounding armour

that last bit goes for anything sometime a really high number can be fun for parry or toughness(not both that gets draining after a bit)trying to damage 14 with 2d6 in a large group is fine just dont give him hardy if your going that high. this system that handels the big monsters well as it isnt just ill hit him 100 times for one damage till he is dead you have to get telling hits. with lots of dice aceing is possible and can make the fights feel cinematic. run run run, i see an opening, its shaken, pile on now arrrrrrrg

or as the minion feel when fighting fast guy(or master fencers) if only one of these hits landed i would chop the bugger* in half.

*aussie i can use that word

the other side is if they are truly fighting low level minions then you are not doing anything wrong. they should go through them like snot through a kleenex. but if the are making a scene and the V are getting annoyed they do go hunting even in the southern points if needed to. if your targets are similar then they will start trying to send the right troop to the right place as guards or even a trap

try getting more hits but with lower damage and just ingore a ace every now and again. getting a would or even just hit will remind them that
the key word in super human is not always super
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Zadmar
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Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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Location: Munich

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some ideas for dealing with speedy...

Absorption + Reflection: Reflect speedy's damage back on him.

Burrowing: Wait underground, only erupt behind speedy during your own turn.

Ensnare + Ranged Attack + Stronger: Go on hold, and hit him as he approaches.

Fear + Scary + Terror: When speedy gets within 12", he has to make a Guts/Spirit check at -2.

Flight: Fly up into the air and blast speedy with blasters, net guns, nullifier guns, foam throwers, etc.

Force/Matter Control + Bind: Pin speedy to the ground.

Illusion: Pit traps or land mines with illusions of regular floor over the top!

Intangibility + Phaser: Go on hold, only phase out to attack if he beats speedy on the opposed Agility roll.

Invisibility: Walk up to speedy and attack

Jinx + Improved Jinx: Speedy has a 17% chance of suffering a mishap each time he attacks.

Mind Control: Turn speedy on his friends!

Negation: Negate speedy's speed power.

Paralysis + Extra Power + Parry (max) + Super Skill (Fighting) + First Strike + Improved Counterattack: Ouch.

Speed: It's Reverse Speedy!

Telekinesis: Lift speedy a foot above the ground, wait for minions with chainsaws to finish him.

Teleport + More Range + Teleport Other: Summon speedy into the middle of a crowd of minions.

Also, don't forget that you can attack an area rather than the speedy himself. Deflection doesn't help against a grenade.
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sirdrasco
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Joined: 08 Aug 2012
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Location: Utah, Roy

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also am running a NE campaign, and characters have made it to Plot Ponint two.

But they have raided two separate Alien facilities, the aliens have recording of what they can do and are in the process of adapting. The Aliens have conquered many worlds and must adapt or perish. Make it happen, seek their weaknesses, put huge rewards for info.
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Kertain
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wheatiess wrote:
for the fast guy have a character with first strike and stun(and fighting to match fast guys high parry) could be a predictive combat analyiser. when he charges him he wont expect to be slaped away and dazed for 1d6 turns. the only way the fast guy could beat him is to suprise him or use ranged attacks


So as I read it, Stun will Shake a target, which does little if is the Shaken characters Parry is high enough to not get "hit" again. Unless I house rule a daze/unable to move attribute to the power similar to a stun wand.

Other suggestions are great and got me scheming ways to make things challenging...but I wanted to specifically see what you meant by that and that I was missing something.

Thanks!
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ogbendog
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he's shaken, he might lose his turn.

or, once he is shaken, 5 guys on hold run up and wild attack. +2 wild attack. +4 gang up. vs parry 11. need a 5 to hit.
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jpk
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget the lowly bug, rat, bat, or angry bird. Swarms just hit, you know.
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