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[SK] Upside Down Fright Table?

 
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raikenclw
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:42 am    Post subject: [SK] Upside Down Fright Table? Reply with quote

I can't find my Explorer's Edition just now to check if it had previously been this way.

But I was just reading the Fear rules in SK and it suddenly struck me:

Why is the Fright Table written upside down?

What I mean is; if the Effects were to be listed in the opposite order (keeping the same percentage chances but changing the d20 result needed to get each one), then the section wouldn't have to tell people to reverse the mathematical sign of all Guts modifiers. E.g. "Heart Attack" would become a "<0" result, rather than a "21+" result.

This would also help the Table conform to the rest of the rules, where a higher die result is always better for the character making that roll. The Fright Table seems to be the only place in the rules where you are hoping for a lower result.

Maybe this was changed in the Deluxe core rules?
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Clint
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: [SK] Upside Down Fright Table? Reply with quote

raikenclw wrote:
I can't find my Explorer's Edition just now to check if it had previously been this way.

But I was just reading the Fear rules in SK and it suddenly struck me:

Why is the Fright Table written upside down?

What I mean is; if the Effects were to be listed in the opposite order (keeping the same percentage chances but changing the d20 result needed to get each one), then the section wouldn't have to tell people to reverse the mathematical sign of all Guts modifiers. E.g. "Heart Attack" would become a "<0" result, rather than a "21+" result.

This would also help the Table conform to the rest of the rules, where a higher die result is always better for the character making that roll. The Fright Table seems to be the only place in the rules where you are hoping for a lower result.

Maybe this was changed in the Deluxe core rules?


Nope, the Fright Table has always worked this way. Just always liked it that way. Think of the high roll as better for the GM. Wink
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raikenclw
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: [SK] Upside Down Fright Table? Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
Nope, the Fright Table has always worked this way. Just always liked it that way. Think of the high roll as better for the GM. Wink


Thanks for the info! Wink

But I think I'll re-write it the other way up for my own use, if you don't mind. I'm also going to make it a 3d6 roll, rather than d20. That makes "Panic" the most likely result, which - given that it's usually when facing Really Bad Stuff that players must roll - ought to be lethal enough for anyone. Particularly since I'm re-defining "Panic" to mean you can't do anything except Run - unless the proposed Action directly aids your flight - until you can make the required Spirit roll. Twisted Evil

[I'm going to post another couple of questions on the core rules forum, because they're about the core rules.]

BTW: I hear you met an acquaintance of mine at a recent con, a rather large young man who also happens to be named Clint. Cool
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Thunderforge
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe it's a holdover from the Deadlands Classic "Scart" table. Instead of rolling 1d20, you rolled Xd6 where X ranged from 1-6 depending on how scary the situation was (+1d6 on a botched roll). Obviously with this setup, an ascending scale is much simpler than a descending scale. The Fear table in Savage Worlds has many of the same entries on it and Pinnacle never turned it around.
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raikenclw
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thunderforge wrote:
I believe it's a holdover from the Deadlands Classic "Scart" table. Instead of rolling 1d20, you rolled Xd6 where X ranged from 1-6 depending on how scary the situation was (+1d6 on a botched roll). Obviously with this setup, an ascending scale is much simpler than a descending scale. The Fear table in Savage Worlds has many of the same entries on it and Pinnacle never turned it around.


The odd thing is that the Spell Backlash Table in SK uses the above "Xd6" format. It's normally 2d6, but really bad failures of a spellcasting attempt require the player to roll an *extra* d6 and apply the lowest two results to the table. Which I think is a rather neat mechanic, actually. It manages to penalize the user for a botched roll, while still keeping the basic Savage Worlds result goal of "higher is better." The mystery for me is - while they were at it - they didn't re-write the Fright Table to match.

But I shouldn't be surprised. SK's magic rules sometimes use "spell" and other times use "power," when the same rules state that no supernatural powers exist in the game other than spells. I suspect "spell" got used when something new was written, but "power" remained unchanged when text got ported in from existing documents.

As I posted elsewhere, the book seems to have been written at warp speed.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

raikenclw wrote:
The odd thing is that the Spell Backlash Table in SK uses the above "Xd6" format. It's normally 2d6, but really bad failures of a spellcasting attempt require the player to roll an *extra* d6 and apply the lowest two results to the table. Which I think is a rather neat mechanic, actually. It manages to penalize the user for a botched roll, while still keeping the basic Savage Worlds result goal of "higher is better." The mystery for me is - while they were at it - they didn't re-write the Fright Table to match.


It's no mystery. There's simply a difference between creating a new rule and changing an existing one that already works.
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warrenss2
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ummm...

I know the fright table works as is but would it not be more consistent with the rest of the SW gaming mechanics if it were upside down?

Correct me if I am mis-understanding the rules here...

Way it works now - Character sees a ghost that has Fear -2. Character rolls their Spirit die (including acing) then applies the -2 modifier. If they make a roll of 4 or higher everything is fine. If they fail then they have to roll a D20 and switch the -2 modifier to a +2 modifier to add to the D20. Apply the results to the Fright Table.

If the Fright Table was upside down you could eliminate the D20 roll and having to change the -2 modifier to a positive modifier.

Example... Character sees a ghost that has Fear -2. Character rolls their Spirit die (including acing) then applies the -2 modifier. This result would be applied straight to the Upside Down Fright Table (no separate D20 roll). The higher the roll the better, like in all other SW die mechanics.

Wouldn't this make it more fast, more furious, more fun, and more instinctive also, since it matches the normal of the higher the roll the better?

But then again the TN4 would be missing.

I have no real problem with the way it works now... Just being the devil's advocate. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warrenss2 wrote:
If the Fright Table was upside down you could eliminate the D20 roll and having to change the -2 modifier to a positive modifier.

This would be a huge increase in the power of Fear. If your roll to resist fear is your roll on the Fear table? The Fear special ability changes from a way to weed out the Extras from the heroes, and becomes the way to destroy an entire party at once.

Example of Proposed:
Five heroes and 10 allied extras (Soldier archetype) attack a rampaging Dragon. Everyone rolls Fear (-2).
Extras - one or two of the stalwart companions stay put, while the rest flee in panic. (d6 Spirit, succeed 1 in 6 times, or 16.67%.)
Heroes - die results of 1 or 2 result in a Heart Attack; 3 or 4 gets a Mark of Fear; 5 or 6 gets a Major Phobia (-4 for the rest of the scene, make a Spirit roll to go near the phobia); 7 to 10 gets a Minor Phobia (-2 for the rest of the scene); 11 to 14 causes Panicked; 15 to 18 is "only" Shaken; 19 or better gives an Adrenaline Surge.
Heroes have to roll 19 or better on their dice to avoid a negative result. Extras have to roll a 6 or better to ignore their fear.

That's ... very unheroic and unfun, especially contrasted to the current system.

Example of Current:
Same party as above.
Extras - Same as above.
Heroes - have the following chances of ignoring the fear (d4: 32.3%, d6: 31.6%, d8: 48.9%, d10: 58.3%, d12: 65.3%), although the Brave edge would pop them back to normal wild card success rates.
If they fail the Fear check then they have a flat 10% chance of Heart attack, Mark of Fear, Major Phobia, and Adrenaline Surge. Shaken, Panicked, and Minor Phobia all have a flat 20% chance of coming up.
The heroes should still be around, though about half of them will be impaired by fear. The extras will be reduced to one or two.

Much more heroic and fun.
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warrenss2
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right, ValhallaGH. To make it all work one would have to alter the range of the rolls on the table.

Too much trouble for me. Laughing Laughing

I'd just leave it the way it is.
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warrenss2
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Upside-down Fright Table. Is more logical when compared to the usual mechanics of Savage World... Where rolling low is bad & high is good.

Fail your Spirit roll? The creature's Fear modifier applies straight to your d20 roll... See a werewolf with a Fear (-2)? Subtract the 2 off your d20 roll.

The Fright Table

1d20 Result

0 or less Heart Attack
1-2 The Mark of Fear
3-4 Major Phobia
5-8 Minor Phobia
9-12 Panicked
13-16 Shaken
17-20 Adrenaline Surge
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Last edited by warrenss2 on Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooo! Nothing happens on 0. "Werewolf? Stupid untrained Guts. C'mon 2 .... Yes! Nothing happens!"

Change Heart Attack to 0 or less. Wink
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warrenss2
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL!!!

Missed it by this much! #1kopfpatsch Sorry about that, Chief.
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Other Mike
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: [SK] Upside Down Fright Table? Reply with quote

raikenclw wrote:
But I think I'll re-write it the other way up for my own use, if you don't mind. I'm also going to make it a 3d6 roll, rather than d20. That makes "Panic" the most likely result, which - given that it's usually when facing Really Bad Stuff that players must roll - ought to be lethal enough for anyone.


IF you are going to do that, I would suggest 2d10 instead of 3d6. 3d6 tends to average out too much, with the extremes rarely being reached. 2d10 will have an averaging effect, as opposed to an equal chance for everything, but you can still hit the extremes often enough ... unless you really want to avoid them.

Back when the Hero System was my rule set of choice, I considered changing the 3d6 roles to 2d10. But in the case of Skill Rolls, you really do want things to tend toward the average, so I never tried it.
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raikenclw
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: [SK] Upside Down Fright Table? Reply with quote

For some reason, I didn't get any email alerts about the later posts here . . .

Other Mike wrote:
raikenclw wrote:
But I think I'll re-write it the other way up for my own use, if you don't mind. I'm also going to make it a 3d6 roll, rather than d20. That makes "Panic" the most likely result, which - given that it's usually when facing Really Bad Stuff that players must roll - ought to be lethal enough for anyone.


IF you are going to do that, I would suggest 2d10 instead of 3d6. 3d6 tends to average out too much, with the extremes rarely being reached. 2d10 will have an averaging effect, as opposed to an equal chance for everything, but you can still hit the extremes often enough ... unless you really want to avoid them.


I've gone ahead and re-written the table (the same way warrenss2 did on his second attempt), but I'm still waffling about what base roll to use. I'm thinking of perhaps using the same method as SK does on its spell backlash table: base 2d6, but adding a d6 [and taking the two lowest results] if the original Fear Test comes up snake eyes.

Oh! And I finally gave in and bought the Deluxe Explorer's Edition! So maybe (in future) I won't get *quite* so confused about what a rule really says . . . Razz
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