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[DL Classic] Huckster house rules?
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Tinhorn Huckster
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:17 pm    Post subject: [DL Classic] Huckster house rules? Reply with quote

Hey, guys! No, I didn't open this thread to complain about how the poor Hucksters' got the short end of the stick. Smile Rather, I'm curious - do you folks have any house rules concerning Hucksters? Please, post them!
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Tinhorn Huckster
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noone? Really? I'm actually impressed. Smile

How about I share some of my own musings, then?

1) A Huckster only incurs in Backlash if he goes bust in the casting roll.

2) In conjunction with the above: to limit Hucksters from simply using magic all the time, the casting TN for any hex increases by 2 each time after the first that a Huckster tries to cast it within a 24-hour period.

3) The minimum hand for all hexes goes down by one step - from "two pairs" to "pairs", "pairs" to "aces", etc. This would require some slight reworking of hexes like Bodyguard and Soul Blast. For instance: with Soul Blast, an Ace would deal 1d6 Wind, while a pair would deal 3d6 Wind, and every other hand would stay the same.

So, what do you guys think? Are those solid tweaks?
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never gave Hucksters any house rules. The game gave them enough love that I almost nerfed them - but the huge number of powers they have to sift through and the cost of gaining new powers was enough that I left them alone.

Regarding your own ideas:

1) This change makes the Black Joker and Red Joker the same for Hexslinging. No other change.
Why make the Black Joker nice? The only other place the Black Joker is kind of nice is when determining if the character is Harrowed.
Thematically, it simply seems wrong. Mechanically, it is an unneeded increase in Huckster power; not a huge increase, but an increase.

2) Cumulative +2 TN each time the power is used in a given day.
Two questions:
First, why are you trying to limit the Huckster's magic use? You just make it safer to use (pansier demons, I guess), so why are you trying to turn them into Fire & Forget wizards? After all, every time they use magic is another chance for the townsfolk to notice the witch in their midst (cue Monty Python: "Burn the Witch!").
Second, if the spells are too powerful to allow the use of all the time, why are you making them easier to initially cast?
Another option is to give them Strain of some kind.

3) Huckster powers are an order of magnitude easier to cast due to a lowered hand requirement.
Again, you make their magic a lot easier to use, while being concerned about overuse. There's a major conceptual disconnect there.
From a balance perspective, this makes Hucksters a heck of a lot stronger (and they were already a minimum of competitive).
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Tinhorn Huckster
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, first, I'd like to mention that I had minimal experience GMing Deadlands, and never for PCs with Arcane Backgrounds. I do have plenty of experience playing it, but since most of it is with one-shots and episodic campaigns, most of the time I play a specific Huckster PC (although I have also played regular gunslingers, Shamen and Blessed). So this might be colouring my opinion as to how powerful/versatile Hucksters actually are.

ValhallaGH wrote:
Thematically, it simply seems wrong. Mechanically, it is an unneeded increase in Huckster power; not a huge increase, but an increase.
(...)
From a balance perspective, this makes Hucksters a heck of a lot stronger (and they were already a minimum of competitive).


Perhaps it might seem wrong thematically, but mechanically I don't consider it unneeded at all. No other archetype is essentially punished for getting better at its main skill. Gunslingers, Blessed, Shamen... They all only have to worry about going bust on their rolls; the Huckster first has to beat his casting roll (which is, admittedly, very easy), THEN be lucky enough to draw the necessary poker hand, and hope to Hell he doesn't draw the black Joker, because then he's essentially screwed for the short-term, the long-term or both.

Old Hand is almost a joke, especially for its cost of 3 points (and the requirement of 4 points in Academia: Occult); you will often need to draw several cards to form a poker hand, and even if you don't, several spells are stronger depending on the hand. Meanwhile, a Blessed can take a 1-point Edge that forces the GM to warn him if something he intends to do is Sinful.

And several hexes have a minimum hand of 2 Pairs or worse. What are the odds of getting 2 Pairs or higher on 5 cards? 6? 7? It's not that easy to get that many raises, since the higher the die type you roll, the harder it is for you to actually Ace. And the weird thing is that at least some of those Hexes had their minimum hand lowered in "Hucksters & Hexes"... Only for the Revised Player's Guide to undo those changes.

So basically, I consider the Huckster's effectiveness to be severely limited. The only other archetype that suffers as much, I think, is the Mad Scientist - only the Mad Scientist won't be automatically hung just for being one if found out. And the hexes, while powerful, aren't the automatic problem-solvers that spells are in other games, particularly when you consider the power of some of the miracles.

At the same time, I don't want hexslingin' to be too easy. I want there to be some cost involved still, even if it isn't something as crippling as Backlash. So I thought about borrowing a rule from spirit favors (the one where if you ask for the same favor more than once a day, the Appeasement points requirement goes up) and adapt it. I suppose adding a cost in Wind, in addition to any other cost a specific Hex may have, could work just as well, similar to the Power Point system in Reloaded.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You want a tortured AB? Shaman, without a Guardian Spirit (which isn't in any of the player's guides). You can't use your magic in combat without cutting yourself up. Wink

Odds of drawing a particular card(s) given X draws can be computed here: http://www.unseelie.org/cgi-bin/cardco.cgi
Darn useful for determining likelihood of Harrowing. Or of pulling a black joker when hex slinging.

Odds of getting a particular hand are easy enough to find, though most calculations use a 52 card deck (no Jokers). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker_probability#Frequency_of_7-card_poker_hands
Adding two wild cards to the deck simply increases the chances of getting a hand (though there is the chance of getting the black joker; 9.26% for 5 cards to as high as 22.2% if you're drawing 12 cards due to 7 raises on your casting).

Quote:
I consider the Huckster's effectiveness to be severely limited.

And I disagree. Mr. Green

Now that that is out of the way:
You want to limit Huckster casting while making it easier to cast. My advice is to convert over to a Strain mechanic (see Blood Magic or Hell On Earth). You could use Wind instead, but I've found that losing Wind to casting is a great way to incapacitate a caster.

Good luck!
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WahookaTG
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:

Quote:
I consider the Huckster's effectiveness to be severely limited.

And I disagree. Mr. Green


I agree with Valhalla. The huckster's effectiveness is not severely limited, only severely...random. But that's part of their gig! One moment, the huckster might fail all of his spells and the next moment he draws a full house and blow the Big Bad Boss to smithereens with a single shot. True, the blessed and the shaman run a lot less risk of their AB backfiring on them. But neither of them can tap into the infinite amount of raw power that is available to the huckster.

If you do feel that one of your players is having trouble with his spells, just slip him one of Hoyle's cards Wink
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Tinhorn Huckster
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
You want a tortured AB? Shaman, without a Guardian Spirit (which isn't in any of the player's guides). You can't use your magic in combat without cutting yourself up. Wink


Oh, come on, with Appeasement you can at least use some of the simpler - but nonetheless effective - favors, like Strength of the Bear! Smile Besides, how much does Guardian Spirit cost?

Quote:
You want to limit Huckster casting while making it easier to cast. My advice is to convert over to a Strain mechanic (see Blood Magic or Hell On Earth).


Blood Magic is the magic of the Whateley family, right? Where can I find it?

WahookaTG wrote:
I agree with Valhalla. The huckster's effectiveness is not severely limited, only severely...random. But that's part of their gig! One moment, the huckster might fail all of his spells and the next moment he draws a full house and blow the Big Bad Boss to smithereens with a single shot.


But on average, the chances of the Huckster failing spectacularly are higher than of him succeeding spectacularly. Smile

Quote:
True, the blessed and the shaman run a lot less risk of their AB backfiring on them. But neither of them can tap into the infinite amount of raw power that is available to the huckster.


I don't know, I've seem Blessed PCs do some pretty heavy stuff.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Normal Whately magic uses the Black Magic rules.
PC Whately magic uses the Blood Magic rules in Black Circle. Which is basically the same as any of the Strain systems in Hell On Earth (with an added wind cost, for some reason).

Quote:
Oh, come on, with Appeasement you can at least use some of the simpler - but nonetheless effective - favors, like Strength of the Bear!

Yeah, and how do you get Appeasement at speed 1? Pledge (if applicable, TN 9), Scar (TN7), or Maim (TN 11). The easiest and fastest way to get Appeasement is to deal 1d6 Wind damage to yourself; I've used 1d6 wind to kill a truck full of raiders (19 wind damage to the driver, truck went Out Of Control and Rolled, killing all 13 occupants). 1d6 Wind can incapacitate a PC in a hurry (average wind 12, average PC wind ~16).
Quote:
Besides, how much does Guardian Spirit cost?

If you don't have Ghost Dancers, it costs all your points forever, and you still get nothing. Razz If you do have Ghost Dancers then it is a 1 to 5 point edge, storing an equal number of banked Appeasement.


You brought up Old Hand (for some reason), so I'll state that it is a great edge. A bit expensive (really feels like a 2, not a 3), but an excellent edge to let you roll over the manitou. With your first Ace, you can stop drawing and activate your Ace High power; as soon as you get a minimum hand you can stop pulling cards. The only reason to pull more cards is because you're being greedy, which is when the powers should be biting you. Laughing
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Tinhorn Huckster
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
Normal Whately magic uses the Black Magic rules.
PC Whately magic uses the Blood Magic rules in Black Circle. Which is basically the same as any of the Strain systems in Hell On Earth (with an added wind cost, for some reason).


I think my GM has the book with Black Magic rules, I'll talk to him and see if he'll let me take a look. Thanks!

Quote:
Yeah, and how do you get Appeasement at speed 1?


Sorry, I had a brain fart; by Appeasement, I meant Pledge. Which can be used to generate at least 1 Appeasement point at Speed 1. Smile

Quote:
With your first Ace, you can stop drawing and activate your Ace High power;(...)


If you're casting an Ace-level power, and not, say, Missed Me!, Hunch, Achilles' Heel, etc. And it's not greed to try out at least for a Pair with Bodyguard and similar hexes. Smile

Basically, hexes aren't reliable at all. I'll give you that thematically that's good, but mechanically, I don't think that's fun! Smile
Anyway, I said I didn't open the thread to complain about the Huckster, and I already went back on that. Razz Thanks for the suggestion, Valhalla, I'll try and take a look at the Black Circle book and see if I can come up with an interesting homebrew.[/b]
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinhorn Huckster wrote:
I think my GM has the book with Black Magic rules, I'll talk to him and see if he'll let me take a look. Thanks!

Skip over Black Magic. That's special, NPC only, game mechanics. It's not fair, it's not balanced, and it's not going to be fun for everyone else at the table if you're running around with it.
Blood Magic, however, is in Black Circle, is balanced for PC use, and should be pretty fun.



A simple tweak to Hucksters, inspired by Reloaded, is that they draw 5 cards plus a number equal to their Grit when casting. That's 5 to 10 cards for a basic success, with another card per raise on the casting roll.
It doesn't help with the Joker issues, but it does make it a lot more likely that the experienced Huckster will make his magic work.

P.S. Don't be afraid to spend Chips on the Hexslingin' rolls. Rolling extra dice and adding dice were both figured into the design balance.
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Tinhorn Huckster
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
Blood Magic, however, is in Black Circle, is balanced for PC use, and should be pretty fun.


Thanks for the suggestion! I really liked the Strain system; I'd just have to decide how much Strain each hex costs. Maybe 1 Strain for spells with a minimum hand of Ace, 2 for minimum hand of Pairs, and so on and so forth?

I'm curious: what are the differences between Blood Magic's Strain system and Hell on Earth's? Because Blood Magic's system still involves a Wind cost.

Quote:
It doesn't help with the Joker issues, but it does make it a lot more likely that the experienced Huckster will make his magic work.


I would love this rule, if not for the Joker issue. Smile
I wonder if people would be more sympathetic to the Huckster's problems if every skill roll in the game had a random, non-skill dependant chance to bust - and with the bust being ten times worse than usual. Very Happy
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinhorn Huckster wrote:
I'm curious: what are the differences between Blood Magic's Strain system and Hell on Earth's? Because Blood Magic's system still involves a Wind cost.

The Wind cost. Mr. Green
In HOE, Strain is the limit on how much you can cast, with no additional costs. Blood Magic is the same way, except there is an additional Wind cost (I'm not sure why).


As for the Joker, have it only affect the Huckster if he uses it to make a hand. Backfire becomes a conscious choice as the player attempts to complete a more impressive hand.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinhorn Huckster wrote:
I wonder if people would be more sympathetic to the Huckster's problems if every skill roll in the game had a random, non-skill dependant chance to bust - and with the bust being ten times worse than usual. Very Happy


Thing is, every other skill roll in the game doesn't allows someone to effectively "break" the rules though. If Shooting meant a weapon that couldn't be taken away or Dodge guaranteed being harder to hit and could be maintained without taking another action, it'd be a different story. Heck, if any other skill granted one special ability for each level of the skill, it would be a completely different story.

But they don't. Power comes with a price.

And really, it's backlash for drawing one specific card from the deck of 54, and as far as it being ten times worse, well, that's up to the Marshal, but going bust should be pretty darn bad if the effects are equivalent to what a hex might pull off. Though I might suggest the Extended Backlash Table from Hucksters and Hexes to assuage things a bit.
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Tinhorn Huckster
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
As for the Joker, have it only affect the Huckster if he uses it to make a hand. Backfire becomes a conscious choice as the player attempts to complete a more impressive hand.


Oh, I love it! Thanks for the suggestions, Valhalla! Smile

Clint wrote:
Thing is, every other skill roll in the game doesn't allows someone to effectively "break" the rules though.


Ok, but hexes aren't nearly that absolute as you make them sound. Shadow Walk is awesome, but you still need Stealth; Soul Blast is good and can affect supernatural targets, but most guns are better at raw damage (which is as it should be, of course); Bodyguard is very nice, but Devices are usually better at providing protection; and Missed Me!'s +5 is a very nice bonus indeed, but alone it won't save you from an actual gunslinger, unless you come up with a lot of other modifiers to pile up. Not to mention the Wind cost on several hexes.

Plus, you know, that whole pesky "people want to hang or burn the Huckster" thing. Smile

Power comes at a price, yes, but it honestly feels to me like the Hucksters aren't gamblers willing to try and roll for the hard six and more like suckers who made a bad deal.

Quote:
And really, it's backlash for drawing one specific card from the deck of 54,(...)


Which WILL happen at some point in the Huckster's career. Smile
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to help. Good luck!
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Tinhorn Huckster
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey there, guys! So, I've tweaked a bit ValhallaGH's suggestions and I'd greatly appreciate your input on them. Smile Here they are:

House Rule #1: The base number of cards Hucksters draw on a successful spellcasting roll is 5 + their Grit level.
(This one is exactly as ValhallaGH suggested.)

House Rule #2: Old Hand (revised Edge) - If the Huckster draws a Black Joker, he may spend a white chip to discard it. He may not draw another card to replace it, though.

House Rule #3: Hexes suffer Strain exactly as if they were Blood Magic spells (including the Wind cost), but a Huckster's maximum Strain is based on his Spirit die type, not Vigor.
The Strain caused by a hex depends on its minimum Hand: 1 for Ace, 2 for Pair, 3 for Two Pairs, etc. Hexes with variable effect dependant on the Hand drawn, such as soul blast, bodyguard and hunch, cause Strain according to the Hand drawn.

So? What do you guys think?
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are these three the only changes you've made? Just to make sure we're all on the same page.

For #3: Do they take Strain instead of cards or in addition to? It looks like "in addition to" but I want to be sure.

For #2: Nice.
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Waxahachie
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like my Hucksters as is, though I do see that the randomness can be a bit problematic at times. I view it as part of the Huckster bargain in Classic. Your Soul Blast can blow a villain to smitherines or hit him for 2 Wind or fizzle and do nothing at all. I'm fairly hesitant to use House Rules for Hucksters, because I think that it might really mess with the feel and flavor of the Archetype as it was intended, which I generally enjoy. And while you've come up with a few ideas, I have a couple that are actually just adaptations of existing Classic mechanical benefits for Hucksters. Both of these can be found in Doomtown or Bust.

(1) Pembroke’s Analysis of Hoyle
This relic book allows a Huckster to get an optional +2 to Hexslingin'. If they take that bonus and have backlash, a +2 to the roll on the Backlash table is added as well.

(2) Weirdness Magnet
Gomorra and the area of the town is considered a "weirdness magnet." In this area, hucksters get to add a +2 to Hexslingin,' a free additional card, and in the case of backlash they add a +4 to the roll on the Backlash table.

You could take these modifications that exist already in the game, and simply apply them to Hucksters as is, as if they all had the Pembroke book or if everywhere was a weirdness magnet. I like them in that they're native to the system and additionally that they both give the huckster a greater probability of success, but pair that with greater consequence for failure.
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Tinhorn Huckster
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
Are these three the only changes you've made? Just to make sure we're all on the same page.


Yes.

Quote:
For #3: Do they take Strain instead of cards or in addition to? It looks like "in addition to" but I want to be sure.


In addition to, yes.
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Tinhorn Huckster
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, you guys think the rules are fine? Smile


Waxahachie wrote:
I like them in that they're native to the system and additionally that they both give the huckster a greater probability of success, but pair that with greater consequence for failure.


I get what you're saying, and I also prefer to base myself on pre-existing subsystems. But your ideas would actually exarcebate the issues I have with hexslinging. Smile
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