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Savage HoE Powers

 
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Fuzyfeet
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Joined: 07 Sep 2005
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Location: Gilroy, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:30 am    Post subject: Savage HoE Powers Reply with quote

So I have a group that wants to play HoE online. We have had FG for some time and we like it. Since I have the SW ruleset and I'm running the game we have decided to use it (I'm not taking the time coding a classic ruleset). So that means to play I have to do some work (less work than a ruleset) for them and me to get the game going. So now that I've novelized the set up, here is my list of the Powers in DL:R with trappings for Doomsayers, Sykers and Templars (I have a plan for Greater Rewards, I'll include that later, or another time).

Doomsayers:
*Armor-Called Molecular Cohesion.
*Barrier-Called Aegis.
*Blast-Called Nuke.
*Bolt-Called Atomic Blast.
*Boost/Lower Trait-Can do either. Called Altered States.
*Burst-Called Microwave.
*Curse-Causes the subject to Mutate in painful and deadly ways. Called Mutate!.
*Deflection-Called Molecular bonding.
*Detect/Conceal Arcana-Can see arcane and radiation. Called Geigor Vision.
*Elemental Manipulation-Used to clean water. Called Purify.
*Entangle-Called Greenthumb.
*Environmental Protection-Makes the Doomsayer immune to Radiation. Called Tolerance.
*Fear-The Doomsayer's voice becomes horrific. Called Voice oí Doom.
*Gambler-The Doomsayer glows as long as The Glow is on her side. Called The Glow's Favor.
*Greater Healing-Called The Doomsayer's Mercy.
*Healing-Called Touch of the Doomsayer.
*Hunch-Called Questioning hand.
*Light-Called The Glow.
*Obscure-Congures a cloud that does 2d6/round to anyone inside. Called Toxic Cloud.
*Protection-Called The Glow's Emberace.
*Shape Change-Rank: Seasoned. The Doomsayer becomes a hulking green giant. Called Viridian Goliath.
*Smite-The Doomsayer needs a control rod from a nuclear power plant. Called Glow Stick.
*Stun-This is used in two ways (each bought seperatly), the first stun a subject like the power reads called Synaptic static. The second stuns electronics called EMP. The difficulty of the roll is chosen by the GM based on the device's complectity.
*Teleport-Called Quantum leap.
*Telekinesis-Only works on metalic objects. Called Loadstone.
*Windstorm-Called Nuclear Winter.
*Zombie-Called Rad Zombie.

Sykers:
*Aim-Called Clairvoyance.
*Armor-Simmering fielf od energy. Called Force Field.
*Beast Friend-Called Here Doggie!
*Blast-Hurling a fireball. Called Arson.
*Bolt-Called Brain Blast.
*Boost/Lower Trait-Called Body Control.
*Burst-Called Brain Wave.
*Curse-Causes chest pains the eventually desroys the subject's heart. Called Heartstopper.
*Deflection-Called Missed Me!
*Detect/Conceal Arcana-A transusive eye apears on the Syker's forehead alowwing she to see the arcane. Called Third Eye.
*Dispel-Called Negatator.
*Elemental Manipulation-Fire only. Called Pyro.
*Environmental Protection-Makes the Syker immune to fire. Called Fireproof.
*Fear-Makes the subject hallucinate their worst fear. Called Hallucination.
*Healing-Called Medic.
*Hunch-Called Psychometry.
*Invisibility-Called Preditor.
*Mind Rider-Do I really need to spell this out?
*Protection-Called Back Off.
*Puppet-Called Meatputtet.
*Shape Change-Called Skinwalker.
*Speak Language-The Syker does this mentally, not vocaly. Called Psychic Link.
*Stun-Called Brain Slammer.
*Succor-Called Band-Aid.
*Telekinesis-No Change.

Templars:
*Aim-Called Deadeye.
*Armor-Called Armor of the Saints.
*Beast Friend-No visable effect.
*Boost/Lower Trait-Works only on the Templar's Strength or Vigor (each bought seperatly). Called Inner Strength and Endurance respectively.
*Deflection-Called Gardian Angel.
*Detect/Conceal Arcana-Called Eyes of the Saints.
*Exorcism-Rare power.
*Gambler-Called Pluck.
*Greater Healing-Is a Greater Reward.
*Healing-Called Lay on Hands.
*Hunch-Called Persuader.
*Inspiration-Called Exalted Dead.
*Puppet-Called Command.
*Quickness-Called Celerity.
*Smite-Called Fury of the Saints.
*Speed-No change, available.
*Succor-Called Survivor.
*Telekinesis-
*Trinkets-Works only on the Templar's sword/Anti-Templar's axe. Called Call Sword/Axe.
*Wilderness Walk-No change, available.

So what do you all think? Enough for each? Did I miss something?
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ScooterinAB
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Joined: 22 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny, I was thinking the same idea. One concern that I'd heard was that all AB's were basically the same (or felt that way). I figured naming the powers would add a touch of uniqueness.

Right now, I'm looking at how to bring Junkers into SW. Everything is theoretical and needs playtesting though. If you want, I'd be happy to share my thoughts once they are a bit more formalized. I'm also working on some other conversion material for AB's.
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Fuzyfeet
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Joined: 07 Sep 2005
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Location: Gilroy, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no expert on SW. Save for reading DL:R when it came out I never touched the rules. But I've been pouring over them, and the ABs are generic in the core rule (as they should be) but it's the trappings, naming, and setting that make them special (at least that's how I interpret it) in play. So while Sykers don't need any change from the Arcane Background (Psionics), Templars need major changing, while Doomsayers need a little refinement.

I wasn't sure if I was going to touch Junkers for the most part. The Mad Scientist in DL:R seems to be the same, but I would love to see what you have. The one thing I was going to add/change for Junkers was Drain. Yes it would be power points, but the device wouldn't recharge itself. I was hopping to add that in at some point.

I finished my write up of Templars last night so once I fix a bug in my site, they will be up for sure. The basic of what I did was, Templars work like AB(Super Powers) with the powers called Rewards but they can get Greater Rewards when the posse gets a Legendary Chip, just like in classic. The Greater Rewards are mostly Edges (all of them are from the books) with some getting pluses to a Trait instead.
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Wendigo1870
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuzyfeet wrote:
I wasn't sure if I was going to touch Junkers for the most part. The Mad Scientist in DL:R seems to be the same, but I would love to see what you have. The one thing I was going to add/change for Junkers was Drain. Yes it would be power points, but the device wouldn't recharge itself. I was hopping to add that in at some point.
I'd make that just a trapping. As long as the junker has power supplies (ghost rock) to make/recharge his own batteries, the recharging should work just like with Mad SciŽntists. Only when special cases occur (all out of Ghost Rock, none bought regularly, ...) I'd concern myself with PP recharging.
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ScooterinAB
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Ghost Rock thing is something of a puzzle to me. Originally, I was thinging of having the "Drain" not recharge. Limit the Junkers' superior abilities. However, I've been leaning towards recharging. This whole FFF business. Junkers are so high maintenance when it comes to devices. In order to speed up the game, I was thinking of having "Drain" just recharge.

On the note of AB Weird Science, It doesn't jive with me. In Weird West, I can see a Mad only having a few devices. However, in HoE, I see Junkers making tons of devices. That was the whole reason behind the development of Junking (creating temporary objects on the fly, originally for spy misisons). I see Junkers going around, from town to town, building devices for locals, aiding the posse with temporary devices, and working on more complexed, more permanent devices. Another thing is that Junkers build devices from several powers. AB Mad doesn't do this.

What I was thinking was to create a set of very simple construction rules. Something like:
-Junker decides on a device size. Each size has certain limitations on number of powers and on Drain.
-Each device size also probably has a set construction time and TN.
-Junker would select powers, determine Drain, and apply a small selection fo variables (to fine tune the device).

Devices would probably still have stability, in order to keep that temporary, playing with fire feel. The also may be a limit on how many devices a Junker can have, but it won't be 1 per power. Basically, Junkers are a refined kind of Mad, using AB Mad as a base for setting up the rules.

What do you guys think?
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RegularDarcy
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I recall correctly, there were different types of Sykers. If that's right then I'd suggest ditching the list and letting Sykers take AB: Psionics as normal and then letting players come up with their fancy trappings. (The pyro-syker gets his fire-themed powers etc, etc.) If you're worried that players will make nonsensical choices about their powers, then just get them to pitch their reasoning (and trapping) when they make the choice and rework any that don't gel.

For example, a pyromancer, or whatever they're called, can't take the Zombie power according to your list, but what if it was this syker's ability to animate preexisting flame and then roughly shape it into a humanoid of fire for a time. That fits and it's a pretty cool idea. The beauty of SW is that you can give the players flexibility without it coming back to crap in your cereal. As it were.
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Fuzyfeet
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Junkers have always been complicated and that is one of the reason I put them at the end of my 'to-do list'. I just uploaded the update to my HoE site, that switches the rules from classic to savage with the click of a button at the bottom of the page. I put up my idea on Doomsayers, Sykers, Templars and a few Edges and a house rule on mutations so far.
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Fuzyfeet
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh quick note of limiting the number of devices a Junker can make: Junkers will have power points, and so when they build a device, the use those points up and have to wait till the next day for them to come back.

Example:
Bob the Junker had 10 power points. He builds a cloaking suit (5 points) two armored vests (2 points each) and a bolt rifle that does 2d6 damage (1 point). He's spent all his points, and can't build any more till his power points recharge...
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Seeker of Truth
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Joined: 03 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScooterinAB wrote:
I see Junkers going around, from town to town, building devices for locals, aiding the posse with temporary devices, and working on more complexed, more permanent devices. Another thing is that Junkers build devices from several powers. AB Mad doesn't do this.

. . .

What do you guys think?


Ummmm, something I'm seeing here. building devices for locals (presumably out of scraps and junk sounds like the MacGuyver Edge to me. Temporary devices is most certainly the Gadgeteer Edge.

As for more permanent devices that use multiple powers, that's pretty simple to handle with trappings. Lets say your junker wants to build some Iron Man style battle armor. He starts with the armor itself (armor), then later on adds some blasters (bolt), a body enhancement system (boost trait), and flight system (fly). Its a single device, multiple powers, and tinkered over time, since each advance would be bought separately.
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ScooterinAB
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting idea there Fuzy. Would Junkers be able to stockpile PP's in order to build larger devices? Also, how many PP's do they get. Because that could make them fairly powerful.

Seeker of Truth wrote:
Ummmm, something I'm seeing here. building devices for locals (presumably out of scraps and junk sounds like the MacGuyver Edge to me. Temporary devices is most certainly the Gadgeteer Edge.


The thing wth Junkers though is that they are using an advanced form of Mad Science. I'm not up on the SW rules, but mundane edges shouldn't handle that. In terms of temporary, I'm not referring to a device being good for 20-30 minutes. I'm referring to the inherint instabilities and flaws with Junker science. One day, your device will become unstable and dangerous. One day, your device will fall apart. More impermenant than temporary.

Quote:
As for more permanent devices that use multiple powers, that's pretty simple to handle with trappings. Lets say your junker wants to build some Iron Man style battle armor. He starts with the armor itself (armor), then later on adds some blasters (bolt), a body enhancement system (boost trait), and flight system (fly). Its a single device, multiple powers, and tinkered over time, since each advance would be bought separately.


Pretty much what I was thinking, although not so much long term. Some of the funnest Junker devices I've designed have had mutiple powers from the get go, rather than building them in over time. Also, the whole idea of using experience to buy powers for your device doesn't really work with Junkers.

As Fuzy alluded to, Junkers are a very complicated AB to figure out. I'm attempting to overtly simplify a book (basically) full of formulas and construction options into a fast, easy methid for construction. It's extremely complicated, and I haven't seen alot in SW (for good reason) to draw ideas from.

I think in Savaged HoE, Junkers are going to be the not so Fast AB, in order to keep them fun and flexible.
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Seeker of Truth
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the Gedgeteer Edge ISN'T mundane, it requires Weird Science. As for MacGuyver being mundane, mayhap make an improved version or a different version that DOES require Weird Science that allows for more permanent construction of things. Still generally mundane things (pumps, conventional arms, etc), but its still rather impressive to get a town's water pump working again thanks to some rusty nails, horse hair, and duct tape.

As for the other problems, I did have one thought some time ago for something similar. No real details for the how of this but an idea. Basically, Junkers build ALL their devices in a way similar to the Gadgeteer edge. They have a generic pool of Power Points, affected as normal by the recharge Edges. Building a device takes Xd4 hours, where X is the rank of the power. They allocate as many of their Power Points as they want to it. So as a Junker you can have a lot of devices that can only be used a few times before needing more fuel/batteries, or one big one that works rather consistently. As for multiple powers in a single device, the DEVICE gets the power points. So that super suit gets a certain number of power points, that all powers in it use.

Roll a 1 on your skill die, that power doesn't work until repaired. Roll Snake Eyes, draw a card from the deck. Red, that power is busted permanently and you have to rebuild it. Black, the whole DEVICE is busted permanently. Oh and they explode spectacularly.

That keeps things still in the same neighborhood as the base SW rules (don't wanna reinvent the wheel) and gives Junkers a lot of room to mess around in. SOund good?
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Fuzyfeet
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scooter:
While most AB's have 10 points to start, WS has 20, but if they worked as I suggested, then starting maybe should be 10. Really complicated/muti-powered devices would take several days since they would have to wait for the power points to recharge. Taking the Power Points or Rapid Recharge Edge would make things better for them in the long run.

Seeker:
So if I'm reading you right Seeker then an example would be:
Bob the Junker has 20 power points, and wants to build an Iron Man type suit. He choose to use the powers Armor (Rank: Novice), Blast (Rank:Seasoned), Boost/Lower Trait (Rank: Novice) and Fly (Rank: Veteran) all of which he knows. So it would take him 7d4 (1 for each Novice ranked power, 2 for Seasoned, and 3 for Veteran [1+1+2+3= 7]) hours. He then gives the device all 10 of his power points, meaning it has a battery size of 10 with a full charge.

Question: if my example is right, when the power points are used up, do they recharge over time, or does something external need to recharge the device?



I'm of the opinion that Junker Device (and anything powered) needs external recharging. This is the Wasted West. The lights are out, and if a Junker toaster doesn't need power, it's closer to a relic than a really supped up version of its mundane counter part.

One last question for everyone, if the device doesn't recharge it's own power points, are we going to come up with a Reactor like power, a recharging option if they shove a larger Tech-Spirit in it, etc.
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ScooterinAB
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seeker: That's a really interesting idea. I didn't even know that Gadgeteer did that (I though it was a bonus to building, but without the details).

I in ways agree with Fuzy about the power points. Hell on Earth is about the struggle to get stuff. Junkers were limited in HoE by their ability to get Ghost rock, or deal with oversized Tech Spirits and the resulting lower stability.

I'm really excited to look at this in more detail. Right now, everything is still theory and big picture, and I'd love to hammer something out.
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Fuzyfeet
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love Junkman Comith'. Holper was a genius, but those rules are complicated, and SW isn't. Sorry for jumping the gun, but when I get a bur in my bonnet I tend to obsess about things, that and I have way too much tine on my hands. Taking whatís been thrown around, here is what Iím thinking:

Arcane Background (Junker)
Arcane Skill: Occult Engineering (Smarts)
Power Points: 10
Starting Powers: 3

Building a device needs four basic parts: Time to construct, cost to construct, TN to construct and power for the device.

Time: Seeker I think nailed it. It takes xd4 hours to build a power into a device, with X being the power level (i.e. Novice =1, Seasoned = 2, Veteran =3, etc).
Example:
We decide to build a Junker gun. We need a damage power and we want it to be extra accurate so we choose to use Bolt and Aim. Both powers are Novice ranked so it would take 1d4 hours each for a total build time of 2d4 hours.


Cost: Savage World is all about less rules. In Hell on Earth, everything is gone, so wealth is measured in junk. Junkers canít just make devices out of the either, and in the Classic system they used four sets of components, each with its own cost to figure out how much it cost to build a device. So simplify this we would go with a generic dollar amount in Ďjunkí. The device has a base cost based off its size. Size 0 in the game is human, so say 0 equals $30. Every size modifier up or down is a plus or minus 5. So a large dog (size -1) sized device would be $25, while a car (+4) would be $50. Each power built into the device adds five times the powerís level (Novice is 1, Seasoned 2, etc.). So a Novice power would add $5 worth of junk to build.
Example:
The Junker gun we have been building is smaller than a cat (-3). This gives it a base cost of $15. Both powers have a rank of Novice (level 1) adding $5 each, bring the price to build it to $25 in junk.


TN: When creating the device, the Junker rolls Occult Engineering. The TN would be casting multiple spells. So it would be 4 +2 per power beyond the first. We can add modifiers later, like oversized Tech-Spirits. Failing the roll wastes the time to build the power into the device, a 1 means the device is toast, wasting the time and parts.
Example:
When building the Junker gun, the TN would be 6 (4 base +2 for maintaining one power = 6).


Power: Each device needs a battery (or power pack). When a device is created, the Junker decides the number of power points to put into the device as a battery (removable) or a power pack (a charging port is automatically built in). The total cannot be more than the Junker has. When the device is finished, it drains the Junker of the points (recharging normally). Each power while it is used drains the battery (or power pack) and it must be recharged. To recharge a battery (or power pack), the Junker would have to plug it into a device like a G-Ray Collector.
Example:
So we decide to build in a 10 point battery pack (so we can hot swap them in combat) which is the starting points for a Junker.


Sound good so far. Donít get bogged down by the numbers (like costs), we can change those later. I like Seeker's idea about reliability, but I want to tackle that later.

One thing I wanted to bring up is, power durations. If I'm building a suit of armor or a car, a power with a duration in rounds would be silly.
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ScooterinAB
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm working on something big. On my ride home today (went out of town this weekend for a language test), I started making some detailed notes about Savage Junkers. Very interesting.

When I get a chance I'll post them. Until then, here's what I came up with. Junkers come with a free power called Spirit Battery. It allows them to make Spirit Batteries and other basic power supplies, as we as GRay collectors. Basically, the GRay collector allows a device to restore it's PP's.

To build something, the Junker first picks a Size. I've broken this down to a small number of sizes (Handheld, Man sized, vehicle, building, and a few in between). Each size has a hand full of slots. Powers take up 2 slots, a 5 PP Spirit Battery take up 1 slot (more on this in a moment), Powerpacks give a few more PP's per slot. (Note that numbers are still in testing)

Once you have a size, you cast the powers and install any other power supplies (like a powerjack). There may be a cap on how many powers can go into each size. Also, there make be a rank limit on some sizes (no Doomsday device in your first week).

Afterpowers are chosen, the Junker can tweak the device with a series of mini Edges and Hinderences. Basically, small details that allow you to tweak a device for more slots or a minor feature. Some of these tweaks affect Stability (which I would like to keep). Basically the side effect option from JMC, but with more suggestions and positive options.

To build a Spirit Battery (or likewise), you basically just pick a size and fill it with PP's. Powerpacks will have more PP's per slot, and Powerjacks allow for an external battery. I also have some mechanics for other power supplies like Spirit Fetters, Oversized Tech Spirits, and some thoughts for Reactor and Brain Drain.

There are a few minor details, but that's basically it. Detailed and with some options, but still quite fast and manageable.

I'm also going to include Tool Tricks, which will come from a Junker's own PP's (small amount). These PP's can't be used on devices. I'll also be working on Browsers and Familiars, probably similar to what Fuzy comes up with for Templar Blessings (if he does). I'm just uncertain how chip powers work in SW.

What do you guys think so far? I'm trying to capture the full experience without the Math. I'm also trying to come up with a set of construction rules that are detailed but can still make a device in 5 minutes or less.
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