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[RedBrick] Savage RedBrick!
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haterofshame
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerd wrote:
After reading the reviews of SW:ED in the german forums I certainly won't buy it. But I have been looking forward to SW:Fading Suns as well as Blue Planet and right now I wonder if you take that conversions more seriously.


You mean they did not take this serious??? They are printing a Hardcover book with no kickstarter or anything.

You may dislike their work but that was unneccesary!!!
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Clint
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I didn't want to post this in my other post, so it didn't appear to be in reference to the poster, but if you want to discuss what you don't like about the product, that's fine as long as its respectful, but commenting on the creator and making claims about them personally will not be tolerated.

Bottom line, you can be critical but never disrespectful here.
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UmbraLux
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrischie wrote:
Sorry in my opion this is one of the worst conversion i have ever seen.
I hope Redbrick publishers have thick skins.

I don't think it's quite as bad as some make it out to be. (Not just you - several have flung the hyperbole.) I'll agree they emphasized converting mechanics over converting flavor more than I like.

That said, they did a good job on the races and the Disciplines are fairly integral to Earthdawn. I see them as more archetype than class anyway. The edges are certainly numerous...at least until you split them up by discipline. Might have been nice to combine a few of the similar edges and make the requirements looser but, they do actually address an issue seen all too often on other boards - characters being overly similar. Doubt it will happen with Earthdawn.

Magic - yeah that's the one area I really wish they'd done differently. But it's also one of the easier areas to correct. There are many fan created AB modifications and several complete systems - including a few I've written. So replacing this shouldn't be too difficult.

Overall I like it. It does have issues - but I haven't seen a perfect game yet. Wink
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Dracones
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UmbraLux wrote:

I hope Redbrick publishers have thick skins.

I don't think it's quite as bad as some make it out to be. (Not just you - several have flung the hyperbole.)


There's a Shadowrun game kickstarter that went very well with fund raising and I don't doubt it'll bring back buzz for that game. If by some miracle the rpg IP dropped in my lap I wouldn't touch doing an official Savage Shadowrun with a 10ft pole.

It has way too many fans who have their own ideas about how Things Should Be with the product. This is the same problem Wizards of the Coast is going to have with 5th edition D&D no matter how good or bad it really is.

It's far far easier to create a new IP than to do major changes with an existing one.
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gerd
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

haterofshame wrote:

You mean they did not take this serious??? They are printing a Hardcover book with no kickstarter or anything.

You may dislike their work but that was unneccesary!!!


Sorry, I don't meant to be rude. I am indeed not very diplomatic and what I wanted to say was just that: they put out two conversions (Pathfinder and Savage Worlds) in record time and both of them get strongly criticized for the very same points. To me it really seems like they have been done in a hurry without a lot of playtesting. And I don't want to do betatesting for a actually finished product. Of course, no product is perfect (and even if it was I would have to adjust it for my group) but according to the reviews it seems to me that the approach RedBrick took is exactly the opposite from what I would do.

Normally I would just not care and ignore Savage Earthdawn, but the reason why I posted at all is that I really want to have a good Savage Fading Suns. And maybe the developers look up the reviews and try to make it better the next time. I'm still interested in their work and hope they take the time for playtesting and get some experienced Savages to enhance the finished book.

Clint wrote:
Also, I didn't want to post this in my other post, so it didn't appear to be in reference to the poster, but if you want to discuss what you don't like about the product, that's fine as long as its respectful, but commenting on the creator and making claims about them personally will not be tolerated.

Bottom line, you can be critical but never disrespectful here.


Point taken. I didn't want to attack them on a personal level. I don't even know them!
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The Dread Polack
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To think I was worried about being overly harsh when I posted my first criticism!

I think, maybe, the idea of SW being sacred and untouchable has been taken too far. I think, in particular, the people who don't know the original setting probably don't understand how much would have been lost if they had simply made the ED setting using only core SW rules.

Disciplines
If your complaint is that you don't like class systems then you shouldn't play in this setting. Disciplines are a part of the setting fiction, not just the mechanics. This has be represented mechanically in SW in a pretty simple way. If you removed them, it would be a change to the setting.

Karma
Really, not a big deal. You might have 25 of them, at most, but the rules are simple enough that I don't think people will be opening up the rule book to remember how they work. That's FFF enough for me.

As far as I can tell, you don't have to change the way you play SW in order to play ED. Everthing different about ED is well within the realm of "Setting Rules". And, as has been pointed out by the actual PEG writers, professional edges, which is what I would consider Discipline edges to be, are exactly the sort of thing that defines a setting.

It might be fair to say that the setting rules are estensive, but that's how you make a setting unique, and ED is a very unique setting. I'd rather not have to know what a long list of specialty edges and powers do, but like I said, it's still faster than core ED and most RPGs.

Sure, there is more that could have probably been carved off or streamlined, but some of the criticism here is a bit over the top.
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DavidJ
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone who released a big book and got blasted for it by a number of people, I'd offer up just a little bit of advice.

Take the good with the bad, and know that you aren't EVER going to please everyone. But criticisms can always be helpful, even if it hurts to read them (or hear them, as the case may be). Always look at your work critically and stay open to input. No setting is perfect and there is always room for improvement.

Stay true to what your instincts tell you about your work. This is important. If you take something out of your game that fundamentally changes the feel of that game, then you're doing your work (and your fans) a disservice.
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haterofshame
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thurak wrote:
As someone who released a big book and got blasted for it by a number of people, I'd offer up just a little bit of advice.

Take the good with the bad, and know that you aren't EVER going to please everyone. But criticisms can always be helpful, even if it hurts to read them (or hear them, as the case may be). Always look at your work critically and stay open to input. No setting is perfect and there is always room for improvement.

Stay true to what your instincts tell you about your work. This is important. If you take something out of your game that fundamentally changes the feel of that game, then you're doing your work (and your fans) a disservice.


Didnīt the critique revolve around splitting the book in 2 rather than the material?

I think your right, but as loved as SW is, it is loved because of the lightish medium crunch. To bring A LOT more to the table generally receives negative responses.
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DavidJ
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

haterofshame wrote:
thurak wrote:
As someone who released a big book and got blasted for it by a number of people, I'd offer up just a little bit of advice.

Take the good with the bad, and know that you aren't EVER going to please everyone. But criticisms can always be helpful, even if it hurts to read them (or hear them, as the case may be). Always look at your work critically and stay open to input. No setting is perfect and there is always room for improvement.

Stay true to what your instincts tell you about your work. This is important. If you take something out of your game that fundamentally changes the feel of that game, then you're doing your work (and your fans) a disservice.


Didnīt the critique revolve around splitting the book in 2 rather than the material?

I think your right, but as loved as SW is, it is loved because of the lightish medium crunch. To bring A LOT more to the table generally receives negative responses.


Actually I was referring to Interface Zero, whick clocked in at 301 pages.

Interestingly, I DID get a lot of heat for splitting the Totems of the Dead books in two, which just reinforces my statement about not being able to please everyone.

I think Savage Worlds is love for a number of reasons, not JUST the light-medium crunch.

If that were simply the case, there would be absolutely ZERO need for a Horror companion, of a fantasy and sci-fi companion, or a Supers companion.

The truth is that SOME people like light crunch in their games, and others like more. Savage Worlds appeals to more than just one demographic.
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Anunnaki
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thurak wrote:
Take the good with the bad, and know that you aren't EVER going to please everyone. But criticisms can always be helpful, even if it hurts to read them (or hear them, as the case may be). Always look at your work critically and stay open to input. No setting is perfect and there is always room for improvement.

Stay true to what your instincts tell you about your work. This is important. If you take something out of your game that fundamentally changes the feel of that game, then you're doing your work (and your fans) a disservice.


Good advice, thanks David!

Kind regards, James
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Trilan
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I've gotta say I'm pretty happy with the way the conversion went. The conversion of the Disciplines and the way threaded magic items work are two of the biggest distinguishing characteristics of Earthdawn.

We don't have specific examples of the later yet but the description of how they works seems like a good fit, and converting the Disciplines to professional edges which have access to their own subordinate edge pools is about as elegant as I think it could have gotten without losing the flavor.

Organizationally it might have helped if the Discipline edges had been listed with the Disciplines that can take them (though that would have introduced redundancies in the book). That way it wouldn't look like such a massive list, that is a bit of daunting slog to see for example which ones an Air Sailor can take.

My only complaint is ironically the one a lot of people that have chimed in on with the spells, which would have deviated even more from the base SW rules. I think something along the lines of Spell Matrixes that could hold a number of threads depending on their type would be a better fit, but as has been mentioned something like that is super easy to house rule.
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robert4818
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trilan wrote:


Organizationally it might have helped if the Discipline edges had been listed with the Disciplines that can take them (though that would have introduced redundancies in the book). That way it wouldn't look like such a massive list, that is a bit of daunting slog to see for example which ones an Air Sailor can take.


This complaint is easily fixed with a simple downloadable table.

It handles adept edges the same way the spell table does, and adds in a page number reference for the rules.

So you'd see:

Air Sailor
-Novice
---XXXX pg yy
---XXXX pg yy
---XXXX pg yy
-Seasoned
---XXXX pg yy
---XXXX pg yy

etc.

I agree that this should have been in the book, but its an easily fixed issue.
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haterofshame
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm come to think of it, I think your right. Got my personnel preferences mixed up with it I think.

There are a myriad of setttings, and all add something in a greater or lesser way to the core rules...

Some like it one way, others something completely different.

But adding a lot have seldom been received well, and I bet that it is a bit more difficult to convert a known beloved Settings and please everyone..

Regarding ED I would certainly have done some things differently, see my post above.

Personally i like new additions if they are easily incorporated into the basic rules or blends right in... Say the insanity rules from Realms of Cthulhu or the expanded Tricks from Totems of the dead, both are used in all our games( though Pinnacles sanity system is being used/tested right now)

Do not know whether it is relevant or not but couldnīt help seeing the list of playtesters was only 8 persons (or 2 groups probaly) I seem to remember someone on RPG.NET boards giving the advice: Playtest, Playtest, Playtest when putting out a new game. Could some of the critique have been foreseen with more playtesters?? Do not know as I am not a publisher??
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Chaosmeister
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they would have done it like many seem to wish, ED as a backdrop with the rules mostly untouched and using the basic spells with trappings and no disciplines the ED crowd would be in uproar.

I do believe that these things are integral to the ED setting. You can`t have ED without the Disciplines, they are part of the background and mythology. I am not sure what people where expecting here. My players also love the huge spell list. They often have a hard time coming up with trappings, this makes it easier and they recognize many spells from way back.

I would say this is a successful ED conversion, not so much an FFF Setting though. I am glad that there is something a bit more crunchier around.

My main criticism would be how that information is presented. A table referencing the Edges to the disciplines by rank would be greatly appreciated because finding anything right now is a mess. I totally agree with robert4818 on this.
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Tsu
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itīs not about the rules which were added, itīs about BAD rules which were added destroying functions of a working rules set, and turning it into something which does not run as smooth as SW should.

Hellfrost added a lot of new rules and subsystems, BUT, it still runs like SW should run.

You want some examples for really bad design options?

- Adding up to 25 Karma points to keep track of instead of adjusting the bennie rules.

- Skills like avoid blow, which allows a hero to dodge ALL melee attacks in a combat round ... now that speeds up combat. Oh... and you can use that one nearly every combat round. Did i mention the chunk full of dice rolls to use it? Why not adjust mechanics of the parry and stance system?

- Edges that alter initiative card ratings... "Ah. jeah you see an eight lying in front of me but thats actually a 10, because of the rulings with my edges". Goodbye keeping fast track of initiative where everybody sees whoīs turn it is at once. Why not adjust the existing initiative altering rules?

- Skills with requirement Archer and Fighting D10 instead of Shooting?

This is just a quick summary of the first things that come in mind, the book is FULL of these. And you cannot argue that these are a matter of personal preferences. Itīs simply bad design and lacking playtesting. This has nothing to do with complexity, too.

The quality of this book is destroyed by the rules design a true savage would never have added because he knows about the flow of the rules at the gaming table.

Just my 2 Kharma.

Tsu


Last edited by Tsu on Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Enpeze
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anunnaki wrote:
thurak wrote:
Take the good with the bad, and know that you aren't EVER going to please everyone. But criticisms can always be helpful, even if it hurts to read them (or hear them, as the case may be). Always look at your work critically and stay open to input. No setting is perfect and there is always room for improvement.

Stay true to what your instincts tell you about your work. This is important. If you take something out of your game that fundamentally changes the feel of that game, then you're doing your work (and your fans) a disservice.


Good advice, thanks David!

Kind regards, James


Well my advice would be to hire a SW professional like Shane, Clint or Wiggy for your next publication. It seems that your current authors are coming from a different (rule heavy, add more fat instead of trim the fat) roleplaying philosophy than SW is loved for.
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Erpegis
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to second most of Tsu's complaints, especially the initiative rules (extra actions - one extra action in turn for Air Dance! - would work better instead.

My pet peeves (i'm a big fan of the Earthdawn world, hated the system):

A specific spell (you have to pick one Edge to select it) that wets dry items and dry wet ones might be useful for a more detailed system, but I can guarantee that no one will pick it. - irrelevant!

A lot of flavor abilities and spells are preserved, but no one will pick them! A better way would be give them for free on higher ranks.

Beastmaster requires two Edges so if you're not a human you can start with fairly average stats.

Riposte is as ridiculously overpowered as it was in Earthdawn 1e. So is Versatility (especially when you can pick Adept Edges at regular advancements).

Spot Armor Flaw is useless since it's a normal action. While it'll give you a +2 to all attacks it will also give -2 to all attacks.

Superb Sailing is neat (+4 to all Boating rolls is a great Edge for mythic heroes) but it basically guarantees that PC will automatically win all chases.


Last edited by Erpegis on Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Evilgaz
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erpegis wrote:
A specific spell (you have to pick one Edge to select it) that wets dry items and dry wet ones might be useful for a more detailed system, but I can guarantee that no one will pick it.

To be fair, in many years of playing Earthdawn throught different versions, I've never know anyone pick this spell, regardless of the system. If someone does want that kind of whimsical thing though, at least its there for them!

Erpegis wrote:
Riposte is as ridiculously overpowered as it was in Earthdawn 1e.

So they've done a faithful job with converting then? Wink I'm just pleased they've taken it off Scouts and Air Sailors and reserved it for Swordmasters.

I've got a feeling that the Karma economy may restrict how crazy the Adept Edges get, but I'll run it through this weekend and see what happens.

Regarding the Spot Armor Flaw, one thing to bare in mind is that Adept Edges can stack, so there are some that give you free extra attacks for example, although yeah, at first glance it isn't looking a great Edge compared to some others.

The spells and edges can be hit and miss, overall I think its worth having a good range to pick from while providing nostalgia, compared to another light-touch fantasy system. Even a good portion don't get used much.
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rstehwien
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erpegis wrote:
A specific spell (you have to pick one Edge to select it) that wets dry items and dry wet ones might be useful for a more detailed system, but I can guarantee that no one will pick it.

Can't say I'd pay an edge to learn that power (or a few of the stock SW powers like light... at least like it was back in earlier editions where it was just light). But I'm not sure that you do.

While on page 34 it states that the "New Power" edge "Grants new spell". Then Chapter 7: Spells under Learning New Spells says "Characters learn new spells by discovering them in grimoires." goes on to say you get to know a number of spells equal to smarts die plus rank bonus from 2-10.

There is no other mention of grimoires at all in the book, so no idea how often you might expect to learn one from a book. But going by what I know of ED; every spellcaster has one (and it doesn't need to be a book... could be a bag of tokens) and there is nothing special to making one (unlike in D&D where it costs tons of money). Teachers will just teach you spells for a price or you can learn them pretty easily from books. In ED you are more limited by spell matrixes than spells known.

So it is completely unclear to me what the expected method of learning spells is supposed to be.
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UmbraLux
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I've read, you can learn spells from grimoires up to a limit (Smarts + X where X depends on rank) and, if you want to surpass the limit, you can spend an edge. Though it gives you enough spells I'm not sure why anyone would spend an edge.
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