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First Strike/Counterstrike Question
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EmptyOwl
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:06 am    Post subject: First Strike/Counterstrike Question Reply with quote

Why does counterstrike take a -2 and 1st strike does not? Looking at the two Edges, they seem similiar in effect and scope, making the -2 appropriate for 1st strike or neither.

I ask because 1st strike seems almost abusively effective, not even getting into Improved 1st Strike, especially since a character can spend a benny to remove the shaken condition as an opponent moves adjacent, and still get the free attack. Looking at CS it seems that you must survive an attack roll and have it miss, then attack at a -2. Using CS is certainly more dangerous, so I am unsure why the -2 on one and not the other, or on CS at all.

Thanks

PS I am advocating for a -2 on 1st Strike, not the removal of the penalty on CS
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ogbendog
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First strike only works when a foe moves next to you. If the group is fighting one big monster, that means it'll come up once, unless you or the monster leaves combat.

if you are fighting a large group, they will get smart enolugh not to move next to you.

counterstrike seems to be would come up more often. Heck, you can go defensive and still get an attack
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Clint
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: First Strike/Counterstrike Question Reply with quote

EmptyOwl wrote:
Why does counterstrike take a -2 and 1st strike does not? Looking at the two Edges, they seem similiar in effect and scope, making the -2 appropriate for 1st strike or neither.


First Strike only works against a foe the first time they move adjacent; Counterattack allows a free attack each round when a foe misses the character.

That's a big difference in scope as you can get multiple chances at a foe once they move adjacent and the primary reason for the -2 penalty on Counterattack.

Plus, it's easy to make yourself harder to hit in combat (Defend at +2 Parry) and increase the use of Counterattack, but there's no maneuver to force another character to move adjacent to you.

They may look similar on the surface, but underneath the differences show through.
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Last edited by Clint on Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh?
I know Counterattack (Core Rules) is only once per round. Where is Counterstrike from, and why is it not the standard? Counterattack is an amazingly weak edge, generally, despite the situational awesomeness. I'd really like to see Counterstrike, and I'd probably use it instead of Counterattack.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
Huh?
I know Counterattack (Core Rules) is only once per round. Where is Counterstrike from, and why is it not the standard? Counterattack is an amazingly weak edge, generally, despite the situational awesomeness. I'd really like to see Counterstrike, and I'd probably use it instead of Counterattack.


Eh, sorry, train of thought skipped a rail there. Meant to say, you get multiple opportunities for Counterattack (not "counterstrike") against a foe over multiple rounds where you typically only get one with First Strike. Edited to clarify.
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Related thread: Statistical build comparison: Two attacks with two edges

If you scroll down to my second post there, I summarised a comparison of different two-attack builds:

Zadmar wrote:
1st place: First Strike + Lunge: 156725 (wins 52.24% of its fights)
2nd place: Two-Fisted + Ambidextrous: 152181 (wins 50.73% of its fights)
3rd place: Frenzy + Improved Frenzy: 146013 (wins 48.67% of its fights)
4th place: Counterattack + Improved Counterattack: 145081 (wins 48.36% of its fights)

So while Counterattack did come last, the difference was very small, and could be made up through other tactical options. First Strike was also paired with a non-core Edge, which some GMs don't allow.

However when the fighters used Wild Attack, the difference became more noticeable:

Zadmar wrote:
1st place: Frenzy + Improved Frenzy: 180958 (wins 60.32% of its fights)
2nd place: Two-Fisted + Ambidextrous: 174857 (wins 58.29% of its fights)
3rd place: First Strike + Lunge: 144195 (wins 48.07% of its fights)
4th place: Counterattack + Improved Counterattack: 99990 (wins 33.33% of its fights)

But it's swings and roundabouts. If the Counterattack fighter had a reach weapon, the First Strike character wouldn't gain any benefit from their Edges.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
If you scroll down to my second post there, I summarised a comparison of different two-attack builds:

Zadmar wrote:
1st place: First Strike + Lunge: 156725 (wins 52.24% of its fights)

So while Counterattack did come last, the difference was very small, and could be made up through other tactical options. First Strike was also paired with a non-core Edge, which some GMs don't allow.


And to avoid any potential confusion, Lunge does not allow First Strike to be used at Reach (nothing allows First Strike to be used at Reach), it just means the character can attack at Reach and let his foe come to him (if the foe is single-minded enough to do that after they get hit with First Strike the first time).
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
(if the foe is single-minded enough to do that after they get hit with First Strike the first time).

It's not necessarily a bad tactic though. If you've invested in Ambidextrous and Two-Fisted, or Frenzy and Improved Frenzy, and the fight is one-on-one, the odds are still in your favour if you keep following them and using Wild Attack. Their First Strike is against your full Parry, then you use Wild Attack and get +2 to both of your attacks, then they get one attack against your reduced Parry, rince and repeat. Furthermore, if they act first one round and last the next, they'll only get a single First Strike attack for both rounds.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
Clint wrote:
(if the foe is single-minded enough to do that after they get hit with First Strike the first time).

It's not necessarily a bad tactic though. If you've invested in Ambidextrous and Two-Fisted, or Frenzy and Improved Frenzy, and the fight is one-on-one, the odds are still in your favour if you keep following them and using Wild Attack. Their First Strike is against your full Parry, then you use Wild Attack and get +2 to [i]both of your attacks, then they get one attack against your reduced Parry, rince and repeat.[/i]


Um, nope. The character decided to Wild Attack on his action that round, so his Parry is reduced for the entire action, not starting from the point he actually resolves the attack.

See here...

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=255501#255501
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
Um, nope. The character decided to Wild Attack on his action that round, so his Parry is reduced for the entire action, not starting from the point he actually resolves the attack.

See here...

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=255501#255501

In that thread you mentioned (emphasis mine): "Wild Attack would go into effect at the beginning of the character's action regardless of whether the character has actually resolved the affected attack itself yet or not."

SWD page 68: "On their action, a Shaken character must attempt to recover from being Shaken by making a Spirit roll".

In another thread: "If a character is interrupted and Shaken (either by a free attack for withdrawing/First Strike or someone with the Joker/on Hold) before they have resolved any normal actions (not free actions), then they use their existing action to roll Spirit and attempt to recover from being Shaken."

So recovering from Shaken is treated as your action (unless you get a raise), but you can move (and perform other free actions) beforehand if you wish. However Wild Attack has to be declared before you make any actions, including free actions such as movement.

If I understand that correctly, that means you have to declare a Wild Attack before you roll to recover from being Shaken?
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Clint
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
Clint wrote:
Um, nope. The character decided to Wild Attack on his action that round, so his Parry is reduced for the entire action, not starting from the point he actually resolves the attack.

See here...

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=255501#255501

In that thread you mentioned (emphasis mine): "Wild Attack would go into effect at the beginning of the character's action regardless of whether the character has actually resolved the affected attack itself yet or not."

SWD page 68: "On their action, a Shaken character must attempt to recover from being Shaken by making a Spirit roll".

In another thread: "If a character is interrupted and Shaken (either by a free attack for withdrawing/First Strike or someone with the Joker/on Hold) before they have resolved any normal actions (not free actions), then they use their existing action to roll Spirit and attempt to recover from being Shaken."

So recovering from Shaken is treated as your action (unless you get a raise), but you can move (and perform other free actions) beforehand if you wish. However Wild Attack has to be declared before you make any actions, including free actions such as movement.

If I understand that correctly, that means you have to declare a Wild Attack before you roll to recover from being Shaken?


To highlight a different part of one of those statements...

"On their action, a Shaken character must attempt to recover from being Shaken by making a Spirit roll".

So a character who is already Shaken rolls "on their action," meaning as soon as their action turn arrives. Which means they roll first and then based on the results declare their actions.

The explanation above just clarifies what happens if a character is Shaken by an effect that interrupts their action. Since being Shaken has no effect on being able to perform free actions, a character who has performed those still gets a roll to recover just as he would be able to perform them if Shaken.

The presumption above, "So recovering from Shaken is treated as your action (unless you get a raise), but you can move (and perform other free actions) beforehand if you wish," is that situational case means an already Shaken character can perform free actions before rolling to recover. That's incorrect. They just won't be limited on using those free actions based on the results of the roll.

In short, a Shaken character rolls at the beginning of their turn and then declares all of their actions based on the results.

A non-Shaken character declares all their actions first, and if interrupted and Shaken before they have performed any non-free actions, they roll to recover immediately. They don't get to change any of their declared actions, but they may (with a raise) be able to still attempt them.
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Lord Stone
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also expect that the performance of Counterattack will improve when its user focuses on improving his Parry... Dodge, Improved Dodge, Block, Improved Block and weapons with a Parry bonus come to mind as good options for a Counterattack character.
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ogbendog
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First strike is better if you fight a lot of (dumb) foes who move up into range of you, and if you use reach weapons.

Counterattack is better if you have a higher parry.
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
In short, a Shaken character rolls at the beginning of their turn and then declares all of their actions based on the results.

A non-Shaken character declares all their actions first, and if interrupted and Shaken before they have performed any non-free actions, they roll to recover immediately. They don't get to change any of their declared actions, but they may (with a raise) be able to still attempt them.

Thanks for the clarification! So just to make sure I understand it correctly, attacking an opponent with First Strike would work like this:

1. If you're Shaken, roll to recover.

2. If you want to Wild Attack, it must be declared now.

3. Move adjacent to your opponent.

4. Opponent attacks you with First Strike.

5. If you're Shaken, and didn't already roll to recover this round, roll now.

6. If you can still act, make your attack.

ogbendog wrote:
First strike is better if you fight a lot of (dumb) foes who move up into range of you, and if you use reach weapons.

It's even better if they don't move into range, particularly if they've invested in melee combat edges, because you can keep hitting them and they can't hit back with any of those edges!

ogbendog wrote:
Counterattack is better if you have a higher parry.

Counterattack is only better than First Strike if both fighters have reach weapons (rendering First Strike useless), or if the First Strike character lacks reach or has been pinned down for a long fight (so that they only get one free attack at the start of the battle).

If you just want an extra attack, Two-Fisted or Frenzy are the most reliable.
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ogbendog
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frenzy requires d10, which is high.
it' also gives you -2 to all attacks

so Frenzy guy rolls d10-2, d10-2, d6-2
Counter strike guy rolls d10, d6 on his attack, then d10-2, d6-2 on his counter attack if it's triggered

Two fisted means no two handed weapons and no shields. On the plus side, it works with throwing wpns and/or guns.

all the edges have their pros and cons.
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ogbendog wrote:
Frenzy requires d10, which is high.
it' also gives you -2 to all attacks

Frenzy on its own isn't very good, I admit. In fact in many cases it can actually reduce your chances of winning a fight. But Improved Frenzy is a solid edge.

I don't actually view the requirement as a big deal. If you're taking two melee combat edges, then that strongly implies you're a melee character - and the Fighting skill is extremely good, so you'll want it as high as possible anyway. I've mentioned before how strong the Block edge is. Well, increasing your Fighting by one die step is nearly twice as good - mechanically speaking, it's a much better investment than any combat edge.

ogbendog wrote:
Two fisted means no two handed weapons and no shields.

To be honest, the only two-handed weapon I'd ever want to use is the spear (or staff if I had d4 Strength). The spear is as good in melee combat as a shortsword and shield, except it also gives reach. However the reach isn't usually a big deal unless people are using First Strike.

If you're using Two-Fisted then a longsword and rapier gives you a d8 damage attack and a d4 damage attack, rather than two d6 damage attacks. The rapier is as good in melee as a small or medium shield (except it protects on all sides), and far lighter.

That's also assuming you don't allow the katana.

ogbendog wrote:
all the edges have their pros and cons.

Absolutely, and they're not mutually exclusive; technically you could even take them all, giving you up to five attacks on a single opponent in one round.

But if you just want an extra attack each round, Two-Fisted (with Ambidextrous) or Frenzy (with Improved Frenzy) are the most reliable - your enemy doesn't need to move adjacent to you, or miss with their attack. It also means you can apply the Wild Attack bonus to both attacks (it doesn't apply to the extra attack from First Strike or Counterattack).
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Clint
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
Clint wrote:
In short, a Shaken character rolls at the beginning of their turn and then declares all of their actions based on the results.

A non-Shaken character declares all their actions first, and if interrupted and Shaken before they have performed any non-free actions, they roll to recover immediately. They don't get to change any of their declared actions, but they may (with a raise) be able to still attempt them.

Thanks for the clarification! So just to make sure I understand it correctly, attacking an opponent with First Strike would work like this:

1. If you're Shaken, roll to recover.

2. If you want to Wild Attack, it must be declared now.

3. Move adjacent to your opponent.

4. Opponent attacks you with First Strike.

5. If you're Shaken, and didn't already roll to recover this round, roll now.

6. If you can still act, make your attack.


Sounds about right.

Zadmar wrote:
ogbendog wrote:
First strike is better if you fight a lot of (dumb) foes who move up into range of you, and if you use reach weapons.

It's even better if they don't move into range, particularly if they've invested in melee combat edges, because you can keep hitting them and they can't hit back with any of those edges!


Well, until they use any other option to cause a Shaken and then move in, or even send in one guy using Defend to take the free shot and the rest follow.

Zadmar wrote:
ogbendog wrote:
Counterattack is better if you have a higher parry.

Counterattack is only better than First Strike if both fighters have reach weapons (rendering First Strike useless), or if the First Strike character lacks reach or has been pinned down for a long fight (so that they only get one free attack at the start of the battle).


What if Counterattack Defends whenever he moves in? Given equal opponents otherwise, First Strike will only hit about 30% of the time, which means 70% of the time, Counterattack kicks in before First Strike gets their normal attack and any chance to use their own maneuvers.

Basically, the First Strike would have a 30% chance of hitting the foe but there would be a 35% chance the foe hits the First Strike character in return before they get their normal action. In short, it would be slightly more likely that the First Strike would result in interrupting that character's own action with a Shaken.

Presuming there is also a 50/50 chance of damage, First Strike only has about a 15% chance of getting a Shaken or better, leaving an 85% chance of no effect or taking damage in return. Then they get a normal action where the results repeat unless they Wild Attack to try to overcome Defend, but that just puts the odds even again on his attack, while the character with Counterattack now has between a 65-95% chance of hitting. And since Wild Attack doesn't affect First Strike attacks, the character only gets the benefit once while the Parry penalty will apply to any Counterattack.
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
Sounds about right.

Good, thanks for the clarification, I've updated my combat simulator.

Clint wrote:
Well, until they use any other option to cause a Shaken and then move in, or even send in one guy using Defend to take the free shot and the rest follow.

The problem with tricks and contests of will is that they only cause Shaken on a raise, and can't inflict damage. Meanwhile the other guy is pounding away on you from 1" away with his weapon. It can come in very useful in some situations, but I wouldn't typically use it in a duel unless I was exploiting a major weakness.

But the point I was making is that if you've invested in Two-Fisted and Ambidextrous, or Frenzy and Improved Frenzy, you still have the advantage in a one-on-one duel if you keep chasing your opponent, even though you keep triggering First Strike. I don't agree with the suggestion that it's a "dumb" move to chase them, it's actually a tactically sound option.

I do agree that the situation changes if you're fighting multiple opponents, though. Improved First Strike can still help (a lot), but multiple opponents can box you in, preventing you from withdrawing without being hit.

Clint wrote:
What if Counterattack Defends whenever he moves in?

d8 Strength, Vigor, Fighting, d6 everything else. Both armed with longsword and shield. Counterattack and Improved Counterattack against First Strike and Lunge.

There were 100000 fights. Counterattack won 49603 of them, while First Strike won 50397.

Counterattack uses Defend whenever he needs to advance:

There were 100000 fights. Counterattack won 49136 of them, while First Strike won 50864.

Here's a log of one of the fights, just to make sure I've not messed up anything:

>>> ROUND 1:
First Strike launches an attack...
Fighting roll of 15 vs Parry of 7 = HIT WITH RAISE
Damage roll of 10 vs Toughness of 6 = SHAKEN, 1 WOUND
Counterattack spends a benny to try and Soak...
Vigor roll of 5 vs TN4 = SUCCESS (Soaks the wound, removes Shaken)
Counterattack is now using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry increased to 9).
Counterattack moves adjacent to First Strike.
First Strike interrupts with a First Strike attack...
Fighting roll of 3 vs Parry of 9 = MISS
Counterattack launches a counterattack...
Fighting roll of 5 vs Parry of 7 = MISS
>>> ROUND 2:
First Strike launches an attack...
Fighting roll of 5 vs Parry of 9 = MISS
Counterattack launches a counterattack...
Fighting roll of 5 vs Parry of 7 = MISS
First Strike retreats 1" (no free attack due to weapon reach).
Counterattack stops using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry returns to 7).
Counterattack is now using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry increased to 9).
Counterattack moves adjacent to First Strike.
First Strike interrupts with a First Strike attack...
Fighting roll of 6 vs Parry of 9 = MISS
>>> ROUND 3:
First Strike launches an attack...
Fighting roll of 5 vs Parry of 9 = MISS
Counterattack launches a counterattack...
Fighting roll of 10 vs Parry of 7 = HIT
Damage roll of 8 vs Toughness of 6 = SHAKEN
First Strike retreats 1" (no free attack due to weapon reach).
Counterattack stops using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry returns to 7).
Counterattack launches an attack...
Fighting roll of 11 vs Parry of 7 = HIT WITH RAISE
Damage roll of 9 vs Toughness of 6 = 1 WOUND (upgraded from Shaken)
First Strike spends a benny to try and Soak...
Vigor roll of 8 vs TN4 = SUCCESS WITH RAISE (Soaks the wound, removes Shaken)
>>> ROUND 4:
First Strike launches an attack...
Fighting roll of 11 vs Parry of 7 = HIT WITH RAISE
Damage roll of 14 vs Toughness of 6 = SHAKEN, 2 WOUNDS
Counterattack spends a benny to try and Soak...
Vigor roll of 4 vs TN4 = SUCCESS (Soaks 1 wound)
Counterattack tries to recover from being shaken...
Spirit roll of 5-1=4 vs TN4 = SUCCESS
Counterattack is now using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry increased to 9).
Counterattack moves adjacent to First Strike.
First Strike interrupts with a First Strike attack...
Fighting roll of 3 vs Parry of 9 = MISS
Counterattack launches a counterattack...
Fighting roll of 7-1=6 vs Parry of 7 = MISS
>>> ROUND 5:
First Strike launches an attack...
Fighting roll of 6 vs Parry of 9 = MISS
Counterattack launches a counterattack...
Fighting roll of 2-1=1 vs Parry of 7 = MISS
First Strike retreats 1" (no free attack due to weapon reach).
Counterattack stops using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry returns to 7).
Counterattack is now using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry increased to 9).
Counterattack moves adjacent to First Strike.
First Strike interrupts with a First Strike attack...
Fighting roll of 7 vs Parry of 9 = MISS
>>> ROUND 6:
First Strike launches an attack...
Fighting roll of 4 vs Parry of 9 = MISS
Counterattack launches a counterattack...
Fighting roll of 1 = CRITICAL MISS
First Strike retreats 1" (no free attack due to weapon reach).
Counterattack stops using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry returns to 7).
Counterattack is now using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry increased to 9).
Counterattack moves adjacent to First Strike.
First Strike interrupts with a First Strike attack...
Fighting roll of 4 vs Parry of 9 = MISS
>>> ROUND 7:
Counterattack stops using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry returns to 7).
Counterattack only got a success when recovering from Shaken.
First Strike launches an attack...
Fighting roll of 11 vs Parry of 7 = HIT WITH RAISE
Damage roll of 17 vs Toughness of 6 = SHAKEN, 2 WOUNDS
First Strike retreats 1" (no free attack due to weapon reach).
>>> ROUND 8:
First Strike launches an attack...
Fighting roll of 5 vs Parry of 7 = MISS
Counterattack tries to recover from being shaken...
Spirit roll of 9-3=6 vs TN4 = SUCCESS
Counterattack is now using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry increased to 9).
Counterattack moves adjacent to First Strike.
First Strike interrupts with a First Strike attack...
Fighting roll of 6 vs Parry of 9 = MISS
Counterattack launches a counterattack...
Fighting roll of 4-3=1 vs Parry of 7 = MISS
>>> ROUND 9:
First Strike launches an attack...
Fighting roll of 7 vs Parry of 9 = MISS
Counterattack launches a counterattack...
Fighting roll of 5-3=2 vs Parry of 7 = MISS
First Strike retreats 1" (no free attack due to weapon reach).
Counterattack stops using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry returns to 7).
Counterattack is now using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry increased to 9).
Counterattack moves adjacent to First Strike.
First Strike interrupts with a First Strike attack...
Fighting roll of 6 vs Parry of 9 = MISS
>>> ROUND 10:
Counterattack stops using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry returns to 7).
Counterattack only got a success when recovering from Shaken.
First Strike launches an attack...
Fighting roll of 4 vs Parry of 7 = MISS
Counterattack launches a counterattack...
Fighting roll of 5-3=2 vs Parry of 7 = MISS
First Strike retreats 1" (no free attack due to weapon reach).
>>> ROUND 11:
Counterattack is now using the 'Defend' maneuver (Parry increased to 9).
Counterattack moves adjacent to First Strike.
First Strike interrupts with a First Strike attack...
Fighting roll of 7 vs Parry of 9 = MISS
Counterattack launches a counterattack...
Fighting roll of 4-3=1 vs Parry of 7 = MISS
First Strike launches an attack...
Fighting roll of 3 vs Parry of 9 = MISS
First Strike retreats 1" (no free attack due to weapon reach).
>>> ROUND 12:
First Strike launches an attack...
Fighting roll of 9 vs Parry of 9 = HIT
Damage roll of 16 vs Toughness of 6 = SHAKEN, 2 WOUNDS, INCAPACITATED
Counterattack attempts to survive incapacitation...
Vigor roll of 3-3=0 vs TN4 = FAILURE (possibly dying)

>>> VICTORY: First Strike has defeated Counterattack

With Wild Attack, First Strike has better odds.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's something very odd with the Shaken scripts. In round 4 & 8 Counterattack only unshook, he didn't get a raise and couldn't use Defend. Then in round 10, Counterattack didn't need to unshake, so it didn't matter how well he did it.
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ogbendog
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
ogbendog wrote:
Frenzy requires d10, which is high.
it' also gives you -2 to all attacks

Frenzy on its own isn't very good, I admit. In fact in many cases it can actually reduce your chances of winning a fight. But Improved Frenzy is a solid edge.


But if you just want an extra attack each round, Two-Fisted (with Ambidextrous) or Frenzy (with Improved Frenzy) are the most reliable - your enemy doesn't need to move adjacent to you, or miss with their attack. It also means you can apply the Wild Attack bonus to both attacks (it doesn't apply to the extra attack from First Strike or Counterattack).


if you have improved frenzy, then your foe can have improved counter attack

then you roll d10, d10, d6, and the counter attack guy (or the two fisted guy) rolld d10, d6, then d10, d6

if they are fighting each other, the CA would go off unless frenzy boy hits with both attacks. assuming both have a shield, they have parry of 8; odds are pretty good that there will be a miss.

and the CA guy has an extra d6, which will sometimes explode.

If I was CA guy, fighting FS guy, I'd stay at reach and attack his weapon. or stay away and taunt/intimidate/trick until I got a Shaken result, then move in. Or use a thrown weapon

blindly moving adjacent each round is just bad tactics.
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